Is Jesus God or is He a Lunatic?

[Fred]

Nope. The only Sovereign Lord is the Father in Acts 4:24-27, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Timothy 6:14-16. Jesus is described as subordinate to the Father. So while yes Jesus is a Lord he isn't the highest Lord. There is a hierarchy in heaven. Yes Jesus is near the top of the list, but isn't God. No way.

Jude 4 was dodged by you.

τὸν μόνον δεσπότην (Jude 4)

 

[Runningman]

Jude 4 was dodged by you.

τὸν μόνον δεσπότην (Jude 4)

Your interpretation contradicts the rest of the Bible. You're misunderstanding it because you're blinded by the heresy of Jesus being God. This is the heart of the matter. You need to be told this directly.

 

[Fred]

Your interpretation contradicts the rest of the Bible

I quoted right from the Greek text of Jude 4.

Thanks for making that easy for me.

 

[Runningman]

I quoted right from the Greek text of Jude 4.

Thanks for making that easy for me.

Yours is a minority opinion in Christendom. Very few people translate it the way you're proposing. Obviously you don't hold a candle to the actual Greek experts who disagree with you.

 

[Fred]

Yours is a minority opinion in Christendom.

Proof?

 

[Runningman]

Proof?

On BibleHub there are only 5 versions of Jude 1:4 that are translated the way you do, but there are 40 versions that don't translate it your way. It's a minority opinion and not how people who actually know Greek and the context of the Bible translate this verse.

Read the commentaries. I found one commentator who agrees with you, but the rest either dismiss what you said or don't even bother mentioning it.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible correctly asserts the following:

"And denying the only Lord God; God the Father, who is the only sovereign Lord, both in providence and grace; and the only God,"

 

[Fred]

On BibleHub there are only 5 versions of Jude 1:4 that are translated the way you do, but there are 40 versions that don't translate it your way. It's a minority opinion and not how people who actually know Greek and the context of the Bible translate this verse.

Read the commentaries. I found one commentator who agrees with you, but the rest either dismiss what you said or don't even bother mentioning it.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible correctly asserts the following:

"And denying the only Lord God; God the Father, who is the only sovereign Lord, both in providence and grace; and the only God,"

Irrelevant, because Jesus is the despotēs of every believer according to 2 Timothy 2:21; 2 Peter 2:1 and Revelation 6:10.

In fact, if this "only" applies to God in Jude 4 then this proves Jesus is God since it is used in reference to Him IN EQUALITY elsewhere.

 

[grace2]

On BibleHub there are only 5 versions of Jude 1:4 that are translated the way you do, but there are 40 versions that don't translate it your way. It's a minority opinion and not how people who actually know Greek and the context of the Bible translate this verse.

Read the commentaries. I found one commentator who agrees with you, but the rest either dismiss what you said or don't even bother mentioning it.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible correctly asserts the following:

"And denying the only Lord God; God the Father, who is the only sovereign Lord, both in providence and grace; and the only God,"

Anything that does not harmonize with Jesus' word, is heretical.

Christianity is Jesus-centered, not majority-based or people-pleasing teachings.

 

[Fred]

On BibleHub there are only 5 versions of Jude 1:4 that are translated the way you do

Lot more than that here:

Jude 4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Arial]

Of Jesus' disciples you said "who were Jews, steeped in the Mosaic Law and its sacrificial system," which is exactly what applies to Jesus. Jesus, his disciples, and all of the Israelites share the same God and it ain't Jesus.

That goes without saying! You missed my point in saying to remember that He was saying those things to fellow Jews. My point had nothing to do with whether or not Jesus was a Jew Himself. It was how shocking and crazy sounding what He said would be to a Jew.

Mark 12
29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

Is this meant to prove to me something I already know and never denied? That Jesus was born a Jew under the Law? I have known that since the first day of my new birth.

Or is it being used to prove that Jesus is not God? If that is the case it is a false dichotomy. It presumes that if God is One it precludes Him from being triune in essence and being. I also have never denied that there is only one God.

If you quote John 6, you gotta accept the baggage that comes with it. The entire context is about Jesus comparing himself to non-eternal, non-immortal, manna that got rained down from the sky for the Israelites. That means Jesus isn't immortal or eternal. The Bible says so. That means Jesus isn't God.

Odd you call it baggage. Even odder that you claim I need to take the entire context into consideration---which I do---and then don't yourself. He said He wasn't that non-eternal,, non-immortal manna, but the true bread that gives life. And if He is the true bread that gives life, then He has to be the one and only life giver.

It was the unbelievers who brought up the manna, asking for a sign. (Even though they had just witnessed Him feeding 5000 with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread. He had also accused them of following Him for the loaves and fishes, not because they believed Him.) They attributed the manna to a sign Moses had performed. Upon their bringing up the manna, Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you that bread, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Then they asked for that bread and Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe." He might as well have been saying those same words to one who does not believe He is God even today.

1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Why do you use scriptures that clearly state Jesus is God to prove that He isn't?

You quoted Jesus' words where he said "before Abraham was, I am." That doesn't specify how many seconds, hours, days, etc Jesus existed before Abraham if he literally existed before Abraham at all. Now check the Old Testament... crickets... tumbleweeds... no mention of a Jesus, Son of God, Messiah, the Word, Immanuel, etc there. Know why? Because Jesus was only spoken of in prophecy in the OT.

LOL. My, how logic and reason fly out the window when one is trying to prove the unprovable. What was that discussion of Abraham about? Read the entire chapter, every word is relevant to the conclusion of 58. Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly. I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 59. So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

After you have done that, then come back and see if what you say has any relevance whatsoever. Do it without moving the goal post to a discussion on whether Jesus is mentioned in the OT. That is an entirely different discussion. And when you do it, next time do it in a manner that addresses what I said about the I am in Jesus' statement as to its grammatical presentation, instead of ignoring it.

Who is the only Sovereign Lord over all?

God. Does that prove that Jesus is not God or that God is not triune? No you presume it and the presumption will be read into every scripture you use in that manner. All the while ignoring John 1, the scriptures that have been shown you before that say Jesus created all things, that in His ascension He returned to where He was before, that He came down from heaven, that He is the bread of life, and the light of the world. That say He is Immanuel---God with us. That He and the Father are one.

Jesus is either crazy or is God is something a mad man would say.

Why would it be something a mad man would say? Explain that.

He's a genius in that area, but on matters of God he is basically using propaganda and he's wrong.

Isn't that a bit arrogant of you? Don't you really mean he believes what you do not therefore everything he says about God is propaganda? LOL. Talk about a false dichotomy!

 

[Runningman]

Irrelevant, because Jesus is the despotēs of every believer according to 2 Timothy 2:21; 2 Peter 2:1 and Revelation 6:10.

In fact, if this "only" applies to God in Jude 4 then this proves Jesus is God since it is used in reference to Him IN EQUALITY elsewhere.

Completely irrelevant. Who in the world teaches what you do besides you?

 

[Runningman]

Lot more than that here:

Jude 4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

??

There are less there. There are only three on Bible Gateway.

 

[Fred]

??

There are less there. There are only three on Bible Gateway.

You need to improve your reading and comprehension skills.

 

[Fred]

Completely irrelevant. Who in the world teaches what you do besides you?

Concerning which passage?

 

[Runningman]

That goes without saying! You missed my point in saying to remember that He was saying those things to fellow Jews. My point had nothing to do with whether or not Jesus was a Jew Himself. It was how shocking and crazy sounding what He said would be to a Jew.

It wasn't crazy even in the slightest and the common Jew would have understood this easily. They were using animal sacrifices in the Old Covenant for the forgiveness of sins (Leviticus 4:20.) Jesus was saying they are going to use him for their sacrifice for sins in the New Covenant.

Is this meant to prove to me something I already know and never denied? That Jesus was born a Jew under the Law? I have known that since the first day of my new birth.

Good. God wasn't born under the law. Did you know that?

Or is it being used to prove that Jesus is not God? If that is the case it is a false dichotomy. It presumes that if God is One it precludes Him from being triune in essence and being. I also have never denied that there is only one God.

Cool and the one God for those under the law is YHWH. Jesus, a Jew under the law, called his God his Father.

Odd you call it baggage. Even odder that you claim I need to take the entire context into consideration---which I do---and then don't yourself. He said He wasn't that non-eternal,, non-immortal manna, but the true bread that gives life. And if He is the true bread that gives life, then He has to be the one and only life giver.

I'll give you that, but according to Jesus, the Father gave him the authority to give eternal life. So the life actually comes from the Father, not Jesus.

John 17
2For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him.

It was the unbelievers who brought up the manna, asking for a sign. (Even though they had just witnessed Him feeding 5000 with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread. He had also accused them of following Him for the loaves and fishes, not because they believed Him.) They attributed the manna to a sign Moses had performed. Upon their bringing up the manna, Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you that bread, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

Yes and they had to go out into the field, gather the manna, work it, process it, cook it, and eat. Had they did nothing they would have simply starved to death. It's the same with Jesus. Jesus said come to me and eat, that is to say make the effort to believe. Those who decide not to believe will perish.

John 6
35Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst.

Then they asked for that bread and Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe." He might as well have been saying those same words to one who does not believe He is God even today.

That would not be a right conclusion since Jesus is still comparing himself to the manna. The manna isn't God. The manna is the food that God sent therefore the Bread from Heaven is not God either.

John 6
29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

Why do you use scriptures that clearly state Jesus is God to prove that He isn't?

Oh! That's juicy. The invisible God is the only God and Jesus is the image of the invisible (only) God. How is Jesus God then? Jesus isn't invisible.

LOL. My, how logic and reason fly out the window when one is trying to prove the unprovable. What was that discussion of Abraham about? Read the entire chapter, every word is relevant to the conclusion of 58. Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly. I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 59. So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

In John 8:40, contrary to their accusations, Jesus said he is a man who heard the truth from God. So it doesn't follow Jesus is talking about himself being God.

After you have done that, then come back and see if what you say has any relevance whatsoever. Do it without moving the goal post to a discussion on whether Jesus is mentioned in the OT. That is an entirely different discussion. And when you do it, next time do it in a manner that addresses what I said about the I am in Jesus' statement as to its grammatical presentation, instead of ignoring it.

Jesus isn't the I AM according to Exodus 3:14,15 and Acts 3:13.

God. Does that prove that Jesus is not God or that God is not triune? No you presume it and the presumption will be read into every scripture you use in that manner. All the while ignoring John 1, the scriptures that have been shown you before that say Jesus created all things, that in His ascension He returned to where He was before, that He came down from heaven, that He is the bread of life, and the light of the world. That say He is Immanuel---God with us. That He and the Father are one.

Jesus isn't the Creator in John 1. See John 1:9 where the true Light was coming into the world in the present tense. John the Baptist was testifying of the true Light who gives light to all men. The True Light is the Creator.

Why would it be something a mad man would say? Explain that.

Because no one in the Bible ever said that or got the wrong idea that Jesus is God.

Isn't that a bit arrogant of you? Don't you really mean he believes what you do not therefore everything he says about God is propaganda? LOL. Talk about a false dichotomy!

If that makes me arrogant then it makes the Bible arrogant as well. I simply state what it says. C.S. Lewis spoke his unsolicited opinion on God's New Covenant, but I stand with God and Jesus and no one ever called Jesus crazy or God.

 

[Runningman]

You need to improve your reading and comprehension skills.

Go back and count how many versions have the word "sovereign" in them in the link you posted. When you see there are only three go ahead and apologize.

 

[Runningman]

Concerning which passage?

Jude 4. Who teaches Jesus is the sovereign Lord? You're the only person I've seen contradict scripture on this point.

 

[Fred]

Go back and count how many versions have the word "sovereign" in them

Irrelevant, because Jesus is thee despotēs in Jude 4.

You can quibble about the English word but the same Greek word is used in Acts 4:24 and Jude 4.
Means the same thing.

 

[Runningman]

Irrelevant, because Jesus is thee despotēs in Jude 4.

You can quibble about the English word but the same Greek word is used in Acts 4:24 and Jude 4.

"This is how it is because I said so" isn't an argument.

 

[Fred]

"This is how it is because I said so" isn't an argument.

It is the same Greek word.

Wow. This is easy.

Jesus is the only despotēs.
τὸν μόνον δεσπότην (Jude 4)