Which person in the Trinity is the Judge?

[JIM]

The Trinity teaches "oneness in Being" and not "oneness in Person." When Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). They are not one in person, but one in Being. The Son is consubstantial with the Father and not the Father himself. Would you like to try again and provide a Bible verse that teaches separation between the persons?

I agree that the concept of person is a bit of a stretch with regard to any of the Three except for Jesus the brief time He was in the form of a human being here on earth. However, the objection to a reference to Person as opposed to Being is a bit of a stretch as well. Both are very anthropomorphic. But then given our total lack of experiential knowledge of spirit, spirits or Spirit in any sense, that is to be expected.

The very idea of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit speaking to or referring to one of the others is most certainly a reference to a separation between them. Thus, every Bible verse that does so is a verse that teaches separation of the Three. The Bible does not speak of the Father being the Son or the Holy Spirit. Similarly for the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I would be interested in what you might mean by consubstantial as applied to the Three of the Trinity.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree that the concept of person is a bit of a stretch with regard to any of the Three except for Jesus the brief time He was in the form of a human being here on earth. However, the objection to a reference to Person as opposed to Being is a bit of a stretch as well.

Humans and animals are both beings.
Humans are persons, animals are not.

Both are very anthropomorphic. But then given our total lack of experiential knowledge of spirit, spirits or Spirit in any sense, that is to be expected.

I have experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

Filling with the Holy Spirit can give experiential knowledge of him.

The very idea of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit speaking to or referring to one of the others is most certainly a reference to a separation between them.
Thus, every Bible verse that does so is a verse that teaches separation of the Three.

Not a separation. . .a distinction.

The Bible does not speak of the Father being the Son or the Holy Spirit. Similarly for the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Are you sure about that?

See 2 Co 3: 16-18.

I would be interested in what you might mean by consubstantial as applied to the Three of the Trinity.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Define "emanates" as you think it is used in scripture. I couldn't find it.

Just speaking about the Holy Spirit.

Of course He does what He wants. He is God, just as is the Father and the Son.

But Jesus said nearly the same thing about Himself John 5:30). All three are One.

Such a pitiful presentation of soteriology. Paul declares that we have been Justified. Please explain what you think that means if we have been only one-third saved. Or perhaps better yet, please explain what you think Paul meant when he said "...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- "(Eph 2:5) or "For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph 2:8). Or you could just point out to me anywhere that it says that we are now only one-third saved and we could start with that assuming of course that you are reason-able.

God created man (Adam) trichotomy: body, soul, human spirit (not Holy Spirit.)
God promised he/she would die "in the day" they ate of the tree. What died was their human spirit,) that essence that allowed communication with God since God is Spirit. After they ate from the tree the communication between them changed. Every child born into the world has been born body and soul - no human spirit. Christ rules the spirit realm and Adam, and the woman had children born body and soul, no human spirit.
If there is no intervention by God (being saved) they die body and soul and are cast into "hell."

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.

Those whom God intervenes and saves He creates a new human spirit, and they are restored to a trichotomy (body, soul, human spirit) and the human spirit is necessary to process spiritual phenomenon and to communicate with God who is Spirit. Thus, Saul's blessing upon brethren is realized:

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:23.

In this life if we are saved our body has not yet been glorified, nor is our soul redeemed to true sanctification and holiness. Our soul is comprised of intellect, mind, emotions, senses, conscience and will and none of these have been glorified. But our human spirit created anew by God upon our new birth is pure, holy, and the Holy Spirit uses in our communication with Him.

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:23–24.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17.

Thus, only our human spirit is holy and righteous, not our body, not our soul for we still sin in our present condition. We are one-third 'saved.' The Holy Spirit dwelling in us is through our human spirit and our soul and body will die at the end of our life. We cease living in this realm and enter eternity with new bodies, our soul cleansed and holy, to match our human spirit and we are redeemed. Total salvation: body, soul, human spirit.

When Christ returns He is bringing the completion of our salvation.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor. 15:50–52.

In our present lives as believers, we exercise faith in one thing among others, that God will save us, and He will. But we are not yet saved, not yet. Only through faith/trusting in the Lord to save us.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; Eph 2:8.

We are not yet saved but we exercise faith that God will save us. This is the object of our faith. To be saved. We cannot even "act" as though we are saved because not yet realizing His salvation is foreign to our bodies and our soul. It is still yet future. But we have an "unction", a 'down-payment' of salvation and that is the Presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We sense Him, we know Him, we feel Him, and we hear Him, but we do not see Him. He is our "parakletos" who is beside us. He is not behind us nor in front of us. He is alongside us.

Adam was not the image of God. The image of God the Father is the Son. There is no better image of the Father than the Son.

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:13–15.

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, Heb 1:3a.

Further study on this requires acceptance of the difference between the earthy and the heavenly.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [but not yet.]
1 Co 15:47–49.

When God created the man, He looked forward to His Son, the Firstborn of every creature. We are being conformed to the image of the Son. We are not conforming to the image of Adam. We are already in the image of Adam, earthy. The Lord is from heaven.

Now, concerning the Holy Spirit. He and the Son do the Father's will. They do not do anything unless the Father wills it. Neither the Son nor the Spirit are mavericks.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26.

...for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: John 16:13.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5:30–31.

The Son obeyed the Father, and the Holy Spirit obeyed both the Father and the Son as these passages bear this out.

God is a God of order. There is unity. There is order. There is an authoritative hierarchy. Everything, even if it appears something originated with the Son or the Spirit, both obey the will of the Father. There is no opposition within Trinity. Any word or deed not commanded or asked, of the Father neither the Son nor the Spirit will perform or speak it. This is what is called the GodHEAD. There is a natural order and there is a spiritual order.
The natural order is God ---> Christ ---> man ---> woman.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Cor. 11:3.

The spiritual order is God ---> Christ ---> everyone else in the body of Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal. 3:28.

Notice "Christ" before the Name Jesus. In other words, in spiritual matters male and female are ONE in CHRIST (Anointing) Jesus (the Man.) This means a woman can be pastor, evangelist, prophet, teacher, apostle. However, a woman cannot be an elder for she cannot be the 'husband of one wife.'
These things are reason-able.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: Isaiah 1:18.

The things of God are reason-able.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I'll just bet that you think that you are one of those who has received a part of His revelation of Himself and His plan. If that is the case, you need to provide some proof. But of course, you can't do that.

His plan is revealed in Scripture.
Some know more than you. Some, less. It depends on the Father's will for that person.

Case in point:

The New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34) - like everything else in Scripture - had to be learned. After Christ ascended it didn't all come to be understood overnight although Jesus spent about three years with the disciples before crucifixion and forty days after the crucifixion and told them things about the kingdom of God - NOT the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven was shared while Jesus lived before crucifixion. The kingdom of God before crucifixion and after His resurrection for forty days. I doubt you know the difference.

When the Holy Spirit arrived, Peter spoke on things the Spirit brought to His remembrance of things Jesus shared before ascension. And it took some time until they would learn and muddled through the days, weeks, months and years trying to understand everything taking place in the New Covenant era. People like Apollos made certain strides but in order to more fully understand these things required the Scriptures (Genesis to Malachi) in order to do it. Two to four years after Jesus' ascension Saul was born again. Being rabbi and Pharisee, he knew the Hebrew Scriptures and most likely had a copy and other writings in his possession. After he was born again he disappeared for about fourteen to seventeen years (depending on when you date his Galatian letter) and he studied the Scriptures for his revelation, same thing we do today and in the past, studies that in time when God wanted something revealed of what He was doing in the earth He taught it to someone in history. This self-learning by Saul enabled him to write letters to Jews and Jewish Christians the things God was doing in the New Covenant era. The gospels came about the same way. They were written to Jews and Jewish Christians. These things the Holy Spirit was doing He was doing among God's covenant people the Jews (Children of Israel of twelve tribes.)

When God is ready, He will open Daniel's prophecies to someone to share to the rest of us. There will come a time when we will fully understand 666 at the appointed time and from some fellow believer. Until then we keep seeking, asking and soon in time, find. And just because you don't understand another's words about this so-great salvation does not mean they are wrong, especially if you've never heard of "it" before, but then that is the nature of learning and knowledge. God does and will prepare His people.

Now what? Did you learn something?

 

[Binyawmene]

I would be interested in what you might mean by consubstantial as applied to the Three of the Trinity.

Consubstantial is not a hard concept to understand.

Do you see the word "God" in the diagram above? In Trinitarianism, the word God can have other theological terms, like: Divine Nature, Being, Essence, and Substance, etc. Like when you read "Only True God" (John 17:3) that is in reference to the substance. Logically it follows that the Son and the Holy Spirit is the Only True God too. The Persons (of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) do not have their own separate and private substances. Rather the Persons have the self-same Substance. The Father is that substance, the Son is that substance, and the Holy Spirit is that substance. There is not three substances, but one Substance. Now consubstantial is defined as "con," a Latin word for "with," which refers to the Son as "with the same substance" of the Father. This simply means that the Son is one in substance with the Father, having full possession of the Divine Nature and equal to the Father.

1. The Son is not the Father (John 5:31-32, 37, 8:16-18).
2. Consubstantial, with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, Colossians 1:15, Philippians 2:6).
3. Distinction, with the Father (John 1:1, 17:5).
4. Inseparable, with the Father (John 8:29, John 16:32).
5. Union, with the Father (John 10:38, John 14:10-11).
6. Co-equal, with the Father (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6).
7. Co-eternal, with the Father (Psalms 90:2, Proverbs 8:25).
8. Co-glory, with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, John 17:10, 24).​

 

[Binyawmene]

The very idea of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit speaking to or referring to one of the others is most certainly a reference to a separation between them. Thus, every Bible verse that does so is a verse that teaches separation of the Three.

But you failed to demonstrate a separation between the person Scripturally. You have previously suggested "Three separate Spirit beings," which is a straw man and usually from the Unitarian camps who are unlearned about the doctrine. A mature Unitarian acknowledges the Trinity is monotheistic. Now look at the diagram again on post 265, see the word "God?" Great. The Father is God and the Son is also that God. But the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. Very easy to understand it, right?

The Trinity teaches that all the attributes (like omniscience for example) belongs to the "substance/nature and not of the persons" or in reference to the word "God" you see in the diagram. Are you understanding so far? The Persons do not have their own private omniscience. In the same manner they don't have their own private divine natures as being separate from one another. But it is the one self-same Divine Nature that communicates to the Persons. Then the Persons share in that one self-same omniscience. They function according to the Divine Nature. Look at the example between the Father and the Son:

a. The Father knows all things (1 John 3:20).​

The Son knows all things (John 16:30, 21:17).​

​

b. The Father knows the Son (Matthew 11:27).​

The Son knows the Father (Matthew 11:27, John 7:29, 8:55, 10:15, 17:25).​

​

c. The Father knows all people (Psalm 139:1-4).​

The Son knows all people (Jeremiah 17:10, John 2:24-25, Matthew 9:4, Mark 2:8, Luke 5:22, John 6:64, Revelation 2:23).​

​

d. Nothing is hidden from the Father (Hebrews 4:13).​

Nothing is hidden from the Son (Luke 5:4-6, Matthew 17:27).​

There is only one omniscience of God. The Son's omniscience is technically the Father's omniscience according to the Divine Nature. That is an example of consubstantial. The Father and the Son are co-equal in attributes. Not in respect to their Persons, but in respect to the Divine Nature. The Son has the same Divine Nature (substance, essence, being) with the Father and shares in the same attributes. Here are a few more examples:

1. Eternal (Psalm 93:2, John 17:5, Matthew 28:20).​

2. Immutable (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 1:10-12, 13:8).​

3. Omniscient (Psalm 139:1-4, John 16:30, 21:17).​

4. Omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:27, Luke 18:27, Philippians 3:20–21).​

5. Omnipresent (Jeremiah 23:23-24, Ephesians 4:10, Matthew 18:20).​

 

[JIM]

God created man (Adam) trichotomy: body, soul, human spirit (not Holy Spirit.)
God promised he/she would die "in the day" they ate of the tree. What died was their human spirit,) that essence that allowed communication with God since God is Spirit. After they ate from the tree the communication between them changed.

Agree. But I would put it a little different. The Hebrew word for soul is "nephesh" (Gen 2:7) That is the same word used in Genesis 1:21 which is translated as "creature". This it speaks of both man and animals as living creatures, living souls, living beings. Animals, blooded animals, are spoken of in the OT as being soulish creatures. Thus, animals are souls, living beings. They have bodies. Human beings are souls, living beings, we have bodies and spirits. It is in man's spirit that he has been made in God's image. (Gen 1:26-27; 9:6; Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7) The single biggest distinction between man and animal is that man has a spirit, animals do not. Man is a soul and has a body and a spirit. Animal is a soul and has a body but no spirit.

When speaking of or about man in both the OT and the NT, particularly the NT, the soul and the spirit are used interchangeably. Not so with animals.

Every child born into the world has been born body and soul - no human spirit. Christ rules the spirit realm and Adam, and the woman had children born body and soul, no human spirit.

Disagree. When Adam sinned, his spirit was damaged or depraved. That damage is described as being dead. But it is still in existence. That is why it needs to be reborn (John 3:1-15; 5:24-26). That rebirth is variously described as newness of life (Rom 6:4), a new creature in Christ (2 Cor 5:17), putting on Christ (Gal 3:27), a new man (Eph 4:24), a circumcision made without hands (Col 2:11), made alive together with Him having forgiven us all our trespasses (Col 2:13), the washing of regeneration and renewal of(by) the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

If there is no intervention by God (being saved) they die body and soul and are cast into "hell."

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28.

Those whom God intervenes and saves He creates a new human spirit, and they are restored to a trichotomy (body, soul, human spirit) and the human spirit is necessary to process spiritual phenomenon and to communicate with God who is Spirit. Thus, Saul's blessing upon brethren is realized:

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:23.

In this life if we are saved our body has not yet been glorified, nor is our soul redeemed to true sanctification and holiness. Our soul is comprised of intellect, mind, emotions, senses, conscience and will and none of these have been glorified.

All of that about the soul is purely conjecture. It has no real confirmation in scripture. As I said each of us is a soul, a living being. We each have a body and a spirit.

But our human spirit created anew by God upon our new birth is pure, holy, and the Holy Spirit uses in our communication with Him.

I do not believe that the body will ever be "glorified".

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Our bodies will not be glorified. We will be raised to a new spiritual "body". We don't really know what that is.


And I will leave it there.

 

[JIM]

His plan is revealed in Scripture.
Some know more than you. Some, less.

And some know more than you. Some, less

It depends on the Father's will for that person.

That sounds too much like Reformed Theology. I do not want to go there now.

Case in point:

The New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34) - like everything else in Scripture - had to be learned. After Christ ascended it didn't all come to be understood overnight although Jesus spent about three years with the disciples before crucifixion and forty days after the crucifixion and told them things about the kingdom of God - NOT the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven was shared while Jesus lived before crucifixion. The kingdom of God before crucifixion and after His resurrection for forty days. I doubt you know the difference.

Yes, I know the difference. Mark, Luke and John spoke of the kingdom of God. They did not speak of the Kingdom of heaven. Matthew spoke mostly of the kingdom of heaven but occasionally the kingdom of God. I think they are one and the same.

Now what? Did you learn something?

Yeah. I learned that some know more than you, some less.

 

[Eleanor]

Define "emanates" as you think it is used in scripture. I couldn't find it.

Emanate = to issue forth from a source, as in "proceed."
Holy Spirit - (Jn 15:26),
Jesus (8:42, 16:27, 38, 17:8).

 

[Eleanor]

Here is one. I can provide many more.

Mar 1:9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

Mar 1:11 And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

I would point out that verse 11 does not say, "I am my beloved Son; with me I am well pleased."

The three persons of the one Being, God, are distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

And I would point out that in the Scriptures above we have the Trinity in the
Father (voice from heaven identifying himself as the Father of the beloved Son),
Son ( Jesus of Nazareth, who was baptized by the Baptist),
Holy Spirit (descending on him as a dove, Mk 1:10).

We also have the Holy Spirit completing the work of the Father (salvation) through the Son (Ac 2:33, 38-39, Ro 8:26, 1 Co 12 4:14 (vv. 4-6), Eph 1:13-14, 2:-22 (v.18), 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2).

And then the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:1-15),

 

[Eleanor]

I agree that the concept of person is a bit of a stretch with regard to any of the Three except for Jesus

Is it?

The NT refers to the Holy Spirit as a person, using personal pronouns, personal titles and personal functions.
In Jn 16:13-14 - the Holy Spirit (pneuma--neuter gender) has a masculine pronoun (against all rules of grammar) denoting that he is a person, who has
intelligence - Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:13, Ro 8:27, 1 Co 2:12-13, 1 Jn 2:20, 27,
a will - Ac 16:6-7, 1 Co 12:11, and
affections - Eph 4:30,
all of which are personal attributes.
Likewise, he is sinned against (Ac 5:3, Mt 12:31-32),
the NT shows him acting as a personal (with personhood) agent:
speaking, counseling, teaching, guiding, convicting, comforting, deciding, forbidding, testifying, searching into secrets, showing the future, sending out missionaries, interceding, enabling, leading, generating Christ's body and seed (Mt 1:18).

The NT does not consider the concept of the Holy Spirit as a person to be any "stretch" at all.

the brief time He was in the form of a human being here on earth. However, the objection to a reference to Person as opposed to Being is a bit of a stretch as well.

Human persons are beings.
The divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Being, one God.

Both are very anthropomorphic.

You'll have to take that up with God's word written in Scripture.

But then given our total lack of experiential knowledge of spirit, spirits or Spirit in any sense, that is to be expected.

I have experiential knowledge of the Spirit--peace, joy, trust, certainty (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14).

The very idea of the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit speaking to or referring to one of the others is most certainly a reference to a separation between them.

Not a separation, but a distinction.

 

[JIM]

Emanate = to issue forth from a source, as in "proceed."
Holy Spirit - (Jn 15:26),
Jesus (8:42, 16:27, 38, 17:8).

It is the concept of "issue from a source" that I object to. I can agree to being "sent from" or "come from". But issue from a source suggests a beginning. Neither the Father, the Son (i.e., the Word), nor the Holy Spirit had a beginning.

Nit picking? Perhaps.

 

[Carbon]

No, I'm not.

Neither am I.

 

[Eleanor]

Agree. But I would put it a little different. The Hebrew word for soul is "nephesh" (Gen 2:7) That is the same word used in Genesis 1:21 which is translated as "creature". This it speaks of both man and animals as living creatures, living souls, living beings. Animals, blooded animals, are spoken of in the OT as being soulish creatures. Thus, animals are souls, living beings. They have bodies. Human beings are souls, living beings, we have bodies and spirits. It is in man's spirit that he has been made in God's image. (Gen 1:26-27; 9:6; Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7) The single biggest distinction between man and animal is that man has a spirit, animals do not. Man is a soul and has a body and a spirit. Animal is a soul and has a body but no spirit.

When speaking of or about man in both the OT and the NT, particularly the NT, the soul and the spirit are used interchangeably. Not so with animals.
Disagree. When Adam sinned, his spirit was damaged or depraved. That damage is described as being dead. But it is still in existence.

The death was the loss of eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

Its rebirth is the return of eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

That is why it needs to be reborn (John 3:1-15; 5:24-26). That rebirth is variously described as newness of life (Rom 6:4), a new creature in Christ (2 Cor 5:17), putting on Christ (Gal 3:27), a new man (Eph 4:24), a circumcision made without hands (Col 2:11), made alive together with Him having forgiven us all our trespasses (Col 2:13), the washing of regeneration and renewal of(by) the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).
All of that about the soul is purely conjecture. It has no real confirmation in scripture. As I said each of us is a soul, a living being. We each have a body and a spirit.
I do not believe that the body will ever be "glorified".

Jesus' resurrection body was glorified (it could pass through solid matter), and he is the firstborn of the resurrection (Col 1:18, we will follow, for he is the head and we are the body), where our bodies will likewise be immortal, spiritual (sinless) and glorified (1 Co 15:42-44, 49).

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Our bodies will not be glorified. We will be raised to a new spiritual "body". We don't really know what that is.

Indeed we do know what that is, it is described in the previous verses: imperishable (immortal), glorious, powerful, (i.e.,) spiritual (1 Co 15:42-44), of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JIM]

Is it?

Yes, I believe it is because person implies a physical being. Jesus was, for a few short years about 2000 years ago, a physical being. Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit are or ever were physical beings.

Human persons are beings.
The divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Being, one God.

It really never says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Being.

I have experiential knowledge of the Spirit--peace, joy, trust, certainty (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14).

I don't doubt that you have experienced peace, joy, trust, certainty and more. But you do not have experiential knowledge of the Spirit. If that were true, you wouldn't need the Scripture at all.

Not a separation, but a distinction.

Sorry, I disagree. When Jesus declared, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", that wasn't simply a distinction that Jesus was drawing between the Himself and God (the Father).

 

[JIM]

The death was the loss of eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

It is more than that.

Its rebirth is the return of eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

And it is more than that.

Jesus' resurrection body was glorified (it could pass through solid matter), and he is the firstborn of the resurrection (Col 1:18, we will follow, for he is the head and we are the body), where our bodies will likewise be immortal, spiritual (sinless) and glorified (1 Co 15:42-44, 49).

Nah, Jesus' raised body was not glorified. Nowhere does it say that. Passing through solid matter was just one of the many signs, wonders and miracles that Jesus was able to perform throughout His ministry.

Jesus prayed to the Father that He would glorify Him. But, specifically, Jesus' prayer was that glory would be the glory that He had with the Father before the world existed and that glorification would be in the Father's own presence (John 17:5). Nothing about a glorified body here on earth.

In the resurrection we will be raised to spiritual bodies, not physical bodies. Neither you nor I have even an inkling of what a spiritual body might be. And neither did the apostle John who certainly witnessed the risen Jesus but declared in 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. "

John said we shall see Him as He is, not how He was. And how He is has not yet appeared.

 

[Eleanor]

It is the concept of "issue from a source" that I object to. I can agree to being "sent from" or "come from".
But issue from a source suggests a beginning. Neither the Father, the Son (i.e., the Word), nor the Holy Spirit had a beginning.

Not if it is eternal.

Nit picking? Perhaps.

Maybe not. . .

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I believe it is because person implies a physical being.

Who made that rule?

Jesus was, for a few short years about 2000 years ago, a physical being. Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit are or ever were physical beings.

Agreed. . .

God the Son became a physical being (Jn 1:1, 14), to reveal God to those physical beings.

It really never says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Being.

If there is only one God, then there is only one divine Being.

I don't doubt that you have experienced peace, joy, trust, certainty and more. But you do not have experiential knowledge of the Spirit. If that were true,
you wouldn't need the Scripture at all.

Who made that rule?

Who said it was a complete knowledge?

Sorry, I disagree. When Jesus declared, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", that wasn't simply a distinction that Jesus was drawing between the Himself and God (the Father).

Yes, they are not one and the same divine person, they are distinct divine persons in the one Being, God, i.e.,
the Son (Jn 8:42, 16:27, 28, 17:8) and
the Holy Spirit (Jn 15:26)
proceeding from the Father.

That is the NT testimony we are to believe.

 

[Eleanor]

It is more than that.

And it is more than that.

There is no more than that. . .and "that" has more than one consequence.

Nah, Jesus' raised body was not glorified. Nowhere does it say that.

Nowhere does it deny that. . .but it does present that. . .able to pass through solid matter. . .able to appear and disappear. . .immortal. . .
making him unrecognizable. . .

Passing through solid matter was just one of the many signs, wonders and miracles that Jesus was able to perform throughout His ministry.

Where do we find him passing through solid matter before his death?

Jesus prayed to the Father that He would glorify Him. But, specifically, Jesus' prayer was that glory would be the glory that He had with the Father before the world existed and that glorification would be in the Father's own presence (John 17:5). Nothing about a glorified body here on earth.

Because, as you show, he was not a physical person before his incarnation. . ."
glory" and "glorified" are not the same thing. . .
"glory" refers to the (bodiless) Son in heaven with the Father before his incarnation, while
"glorified" refers to the incarnate (bodily) Son on earth after his resurrection, not before his resurrection.

And where is it said that we have to pray for our glorified bodies at the resurrection?

In the resurrection we will be raised to spiritual bodies, not physical bodies.
Neither you nor I have even an inkling of what a spiritual body might be.

Contraire. . .

Those who know the NT know what they are.

Resurrection spiritual bodies (sinless, immortal, powerful, glorious, 1 Co 15:42-44) are physical bodies, just as Jesus resurrection body was physical (Lk 24:37-43).
Precisely what the appearance of our spiritual (sinless, immortal, powerful, glorious) physical bodies (1 Co 15:42-44) will be is yet to be seen, but they will be like Jesus' body (1 Jn 3:2).

"Spiritual" in the NT does not mean immaterial, non-corporeal, bodiless.
It means "of the Holy Spirit."
Our spiritual bodies are of the Holy Spirit (sinless, immortal, powerful not to sin, glorious). . .and physical.

And neither did the apostle John who certainly witnessed the risen Jesus but declared in 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. "
John said we shall see Him as He is, not how He was. And how He is has not yet appeared.

 

[Binyawmene]

When Jesus declared, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", that wasn't simply a distinction that Jesus was drawing between the Himself and God (the Father).

When did the word "forsaken" change its definition to "separation?" What you need is an actual Scriptural definition. What we can say that forsaken doesn't means separation. That's what I always argue against in PSA topics is that some suggest a separation. Here is what BibleHub says:

to abandon, desert​

(ἐν equivalent to ἐν τίνι, in some place or condition), i. e. to leave in straits, leave helpless, (colloquial, leave in the lurch): τινα, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34​

In other words, the Father is still there with the Son according to the Divine Nature. The inseparable union of the Trinity (John 8:29, 16:32). But based on this unique particular condition (the cross), the Father is not going to offer help (Matthew 4:6), even though, the Father is still there with the Son (Psalms 22:1 and 24). The Father even listened to his cry for help, and he was heard because of his reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7-8). This is for the sake of us and our salvation (Luke 22:42), so the Son was left helpless in that particular circumstantial condition and had to suffer through it. Again, the Father is still there with the Son by doing the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14). Nothing more needs to be added to the definition of "forsaken" like how some people include: randomly quoting verses, emotional despair, separation, and spiritual death, etc.