For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God: The Father or the Lord Jesus?

[Runningman]

Oh, I knew you would in order to escape Revelation 5:13.

I know your confused method of evasion.

So you don't care about Revelation 1:4-8, Revelation 7:9-11, Revelation 21:22, John 17:3, etc where the Lamb is not God? You're just going to keep mentioning Revelation 5:13 which also doesn't say the Lamb is God. Ok. lol It has proven senseless to engage in any sort of meaningful dialogue about the Bible with you.

 

[Fred]

Revelation 7:9-11,

Post 154.

Revelation 5:13

Which is still there.

 

[Runningman]

Post 154.



Which is still there.

Revelation 1:4-8, Revelation 7:9-11, Revelation 21:22, John 17:3, etc are still there. They are your enemy.

 

[Fred]

Revelation

Revelation 5:13 is still there.

Thanks for making this easy for me.

 

[CrowCross]

What if the Bible says that there are things about Jesus and God that aren't the same? For example, God is called the Almighty and Jesus isn't. There are actually a lot of titles Jesus and God don't have in common.

For example, Jesus isn't the Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25 or anywhere else in the Bible.

Jesus isn't the Sovereign Lord, God, or Creator in Acts 4:24-27 or Acts 17:24,25

Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in Acts 3:13.

Jesus isn't YHWH or the I AM in Exodus 3:14.

Jesus isn't Almighty God in Revelation 1:4-8 or Revelation 21:22.

The list goes on and on.

With all due respect...I'm failing to see your point,

25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. 32But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”

33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”

We can't be snatched out of the Father or Jesus' hands. They are one. Both God as the jews pointed out.

 

[grace2]

Revelation 5:13 is still there.

Thanks for making this easy for me.

You have been recycling the same argument that RM already debunked over and over.

It is so childish.

And again, the rest of your trin friends are doing the same.

 

[Fred]

You have been recycling the same argument that RM already debunked over and over.

Never happened.
Prove otherwise.

You are RM are still dodging the passages in the OP.
No Unitarian is confident enough in their "faith".

 

[grace2]

Never happened.
Prove otherwise.

Ok, that's what all your trin friends say too.

We will know soon enough who telling the Truth and who is telling the half-truth.

I hope some of you repent of the sinful gospel before it is too late.

 

[Fred]

We will know soon enough

I already know now that the creation worships Jesus (Revelation 5:13).

 

[grace2]

I already know now that the creation worships Jesus (Revelation 5:13).

That's how you read.

 

[Fred]

That's how you read.

Correct, because that is what is taking place.

If "the Lamb" was not talked about in Revelation 5:13 Unitarian heretics would have no problem saying worship is being given to the Father.

 

[grace2]

Correct, because that is what is taking place.

If "the Lamb" was not talked about in Revelation 5:13 Unitarian heretics would have no problem saying worship is being given to the Father.

Again, that's your reading.

We, non-trins agree with any of your readings.

 

[Runningman]

With all due respect...I'm failing to see your point,

25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. 32But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”

33“We are not stoning You for any good work,” said the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God.”

We can't be snatched out of the Father or Jesus' hands. They are one. Both God as the jews pointed out.

Jesus debunked their false accusations right after that. Of course, you conveniently left it out.

John 10
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’d? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus debunked their false accusations right after that. Of course, you conveniently left it out.

John 10
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’d? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

But, you then left out the following.....
38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”

39At this, they tried again to seize Him, but He escaped their grasp.

Jesus doubled down....Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.....and they still tried to seize Jesus because Jesus didn't recant of His divinity.

 

[Josheb]

The Lord of Jesus is God.........

And that is because Jesus laid aside all claims of equality with God, not regarding equality with God something to be grasped but, instead, emptied himself, taking on the form of a bondservant.

1. The implication of his not regarding equality something to be grasped implies he could actually do so. If he had that thought irrationally or unreasonably then that would be sinful and instantaneously disqualify him as the perfect sacrifice. It's not like the devil who irrationally and unreasonably pridefully aspired to be God.
2. For every dissent the non-trin asserts there is a scriptural response that indicates the non-trin has not considered whole scripture.
3. There appears to be a lack of understanding the op correctly because the op is pointing out the fact the "LORD" and "Lord" are often spoken/written of in a manner that is mutually identical of both the Father and the Son, and in a manner that would be heretical and apostate if it were not correct and true. The OT speaks of the distinction between the LORD and the Lord, but it sometimes does so indicating they are the identical. It's not a solely NT thing. There are distinctions between the LORD and the Lord, but they are both God in one God, different heads in the Godhead. The non-trin invariably responds with a selective use of scripture that ignores the whole. It cannot be denied the attributes of the LORD are frequently applied to the Lord in ways that would be heretical and disqualifying if not correct and true.

.

 

[Runningman]

But, you then left out the following.....
38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”

39At this, they tried again to seize Him, but He escaped their grasp.

Jesus doubled down....Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.....and they still tried to seize Jesus because Jesus didn't recant of His divinity.

Now you’re getting somewhere. It is the Father in Jesus doing the work, not Jesus doing the work. All of Jesus’ miracle power had very little to do with himself as all of the power came from God. It means Jesus isn’t God.

John 14
10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 10
38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[CrowCross]

Now you’re getting somewhere. It is the Father in Jesus doing the work, not Jesus doing the work. All of Jesus’ miracle power had very little to do with himself as all of the power came from God. It means Jesus isn’t God.

John 14
10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.

Acts 2
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 10
38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

Once again you act as if there was no kenosis of God the Word that became flesh.

 

[Runningman]

Once again you act as if there was no kenosis of God the Word that became flesh.

Your doctrine about that is neither foundational, required, or important to the apostles when they were going around preaching the gospel and saving people. They told no one to believe Jesus is God, to believe the Trinity, said Jesus is God or God the Word, etc. Read the Gospels, read Acts. What you're saying doesn't exist.

But what did they tell people? They were telling people Jesus a man that God empowered and that through Jesus God Himself, not Jesus, was working. Jesus said the same thing. So what did God do through Jesus? The same miracles God did through Jesus god also did through other people. The "kenosis" you insist upon to deify your idol also applies to others. Of course, you hold a double standard so you will obviously not accept it.

 

[grace2]

Your doctrine about that is neither foundational, required, or important to the apostles when they were going around preaching the gospel and saving people. They told no one to believe Jesus is God, to believe the Trinity, said Jesus is God or God the Word, etc. Read the Gospels, read Acts. What you're saying doesn't exist.

This is simple yet they treat this fact like plage and dancing around them.

Keeping their eyes and ears closed.

Their refusal to see the simple truth is the same as what Pharisees did.

 

[Fred]

Again, that's your reading.

We, non-trins agree with any of your readings.

This one does:

Revelation 5:14

"In this verse, the elders fell and worshiped the Lamb, who is Jesus Christ. As God’s only begotten Son and our Savior, Jesus Christ is certainly worthy of our worship."

Revelation 5:14, REV Bible and Commentary

Revelation 5:14 REV and Commentary - And the four living creatures said, Amen! And the elders fell down and worshiped. - Bible verse

www.revisedenglishversion.com

Thanks for making that easy for me.