Which person in the Trinity is the Judge?

[jeremiah1five]

What does that even mean?

John 4:24 -- God IS Spirit.

Spirit doesn't emanate from God.

The Father is Spirit. The Son is Spirit (and human), The Holy Spirit is Spirit. Three separate Spirit beings. The three are one God. God is Spirit.

The real problem is that we have virtually no experiential knowledge or comprehension of Spirit, whether the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus, or the Spirit of the Holy Spirit or even of our own spirit. We don't even really understand of comprehend our own conscience and "conscienceness."

Here are four scriptures that indicate the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son:

1. John 14:26
   26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
2. John 15:26
   26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
3. John 16:7
   7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
4. Acts 2:33
   33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear

These scriptures collectively highlight the roles of both the Father and the Son in sending the Holy Spirit.

This doctrine is called the Procession of the Holy Spirit. It is a key aspect of Trinitarian theology, which deals with the relationship and origins of the three persons of the Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Specifically, the belief that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son is central to this doctrine. This concept is encapsulated in the Latin term "Filioque," meaning "and the Son," which was added to the Nicene Creed by the Western Church to express this belief.

 

[Binyawmene]

The Father is Spirit. The Son is Spirit (and human), The Holy Spirit is Spirit. Three separate Spirit beings. The three are one God. God is Spirit.

The underlying in the above quote is not the Trinity doctrine. There is only one Spirit being, not three separate beings. Do you hold to some kind of tritheism position? Look at it this way, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. This refers to the distinction of persons. Whatever the Father is, the Holy Spirit is. This refers to the nature (or the Divine Nature/being). For example,

The Father is not the Son.
The Son is not the Father.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

John 16:28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.​

The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he (Father) will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.​

The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I (Son) will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I (Son) will send him to you.​

 

[makesends]

Then the consequence is that Jesus wasn't given authority, contrary to what the Bible says, and therefore inherently had authority. That would mean the Bible is wrong unfortunately. That's one of the reasons I don't agree with Trinitarianism.

That is poor reasoning. If the Son of God put aside his rights and abilities as God, to live as a man, yet lived his life without sin, then he not only by rights as God, but by right of earning it, was worthy of Heaven as a man. If the same is true concerning authority, put aside, he can be given authority as the Christ.

 

[JIM]

The underlying in the above quote is not the Trinity doctrine. There is only one Spirit being, not three separate beings.

I disagree.

Do you hold to some kind of tritheism position? Look at it this way, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. This refers to the distinction of persons. Whatever the Father is, the Holy Spirit is. This refers to the nature (or the Divine Nature/being). For example,

You just referred to the distinction of "persons". Yet you said they are not three separate beings. You are positing separate persons but not separate beings. In the human being that is a mental problem that is called dissociative identity disorder (DID).

The Father is not the Son.
The Son is not the Father.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.​

​

John 16:28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.​

The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he (Father) will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—​

​

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.​

The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I (Son) will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.​

​

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I (Son) will send him to you.​

Those references to the Holy Spirit, specifically in John 14,15 and 16 speak to the role of the Holy Spirit indwelling the individual believer. That is not the entirety of person and work of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, I would maintain that what you have just posted there does indeed speak of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three separate Spirit beings.

 

[JIM]

Here are four scriptures that indicate the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and the Son:

1. John 14:26
   26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
2. John 15:26
   26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
3. John 16:7
   7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
4. Acts 2:33
   33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear

These scriptures collectively highlight the roles of both the Father and the Son in sending the Holy Spirit.

This doctrine is called the Procession of the Holy Spirit. It is a key aspect of Trinitarian theology, which deals with the relationship and origins of the three persons of the Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Specifically, the belief that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son is central to this doctrine. This concept is encapsulated in the Latin term "Filioque," meaning "and the Son," which was added to the Nicene Creed by the Western Church to express this belief.

As I said to Binyawmene, those speak of the work of the Holy Spirit indwelling those repentant believers who have been saved. It is not the totality of the person and work of the Holy Spirit. It does not limit who the Holy Spirit is. We first see the Holy Spirit in the Genesis account of creation in Genesis 1:2. That had nothing to do with what was said about Him in the passages you referenced.

In a similar way, we know that the Holy Spirit was present and active in the lives of various individuals throughout the OT and the NT distinct from His role as Comforter indwelling the life of NT saints.

 

[Rella]

That is poor reasoning. If the Son of God put aside his rights and abilities as God, to live as a man, yet lived his life without sin, then he not only by rights as God, but by right of earning it, was worthy of Heaven as a man.

Right.

 

[Rella]

I don't remember saying such a thing. I have no way of knowing your experience.

This conversation started with @Rella's statement that one needed to "study" to be approved by God and chosen for election.

There needs to be a dedicated pinned thread for people to give their personal testimonies....

Over the time I have been on forums there are no 2 that I have heard that are the same and none that are like mine.

Not using a name, unless they come forward, I heard from a lady on a forum like this that literally was picked by God/Holy Spirit and she had such a conversation many years ago.... and never had a bible until after.

Others like myself were a saga in themselves.

So someone needs to pin a thread and let [people talk... IF they will

 

[makesends]

There needs to be a dedicated pinned thread for people to give their personal testimonies....

Over the time I have been on forums there are no 2 that I have heard that are the same and none that are like mine.

Not using a name, unless they come forward, I heard from a lady on a forum like this that literally was picked by God/Holy Spirit and she had such a conversation many years ago.... and never had a bible until after.

Others like myself were a saga in themselves.

So someone needs to pin a thread and let [people talk... IF they will

Most of the conversion (and subsequent to conversion) testimonies I have read on forums are given as relevant to the subject at hand. —not at all to say that we shouldn't have such a thread as you propose, but there is a reason for them to be on other threads.

 

[Eleanor]

There needs to be a dedicated pinned thread for people to give their personal testimonies....,

Which was in response to the statement that we have virtually no experiential knowledge or comprehension of Spirit whether the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus, or the Spirit of the Holy Spirit or even of our own spirit. . .which then became an assertion of that very same experiential knowledge.

 

[Binyawmene]

I disagree.

You are not giving me much of anything to have a discussion.
Care to elaborate as to why you disagree?

You just referred to the distinction of "persons". Yet you said they are not three separate beings. You are positing separate persons but not separate beings. In the human being that is a mental problem that is called dissociative identity disorder (DID).

In the Trinity doctrine, we don't define a "person" as a "being." Set aside your modern dictionaries. They are of no use when discussing Historical Trinitarianism. What you want is the historical context for both "person" and "being." Once you are able to establish the historical context, then we can discuss it out. The Greek terms for person is hypostasis and for being is ousia. Or, if you perfer the Latin, then person is subsistence and for being is substance. You also might want to look up another term in Latin for "consubstantial" and Greek for "homoousion." Like how the Nicene Creed states: "one is being/essence/nature with the Father" or the persons are co-equal according to the being and not according to the person.

Those references to the Holy Spirit, specifically in John 14,15 and 16 speak to the role of the Holy Spirit indwelling the individual believer. That is not the entirety of person and work of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, I would maintain that what you have just posted there does indeed speak of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as three separate Spirit beings.

Yes, different roles of persons, but the one selfsame Being. There is not three beings, but one Being. Athanasian Creed laid that out very clearly. You also might want to consider the inseparability in the Trinity. Because the Trinity framework for Inseparability is “just as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable, so they also work inseparably”. For instance, the Father sending the Son, or both the Father and the Son sending the Holy Spirit doesn't imply separation. And just because the Holy Spirit wasn't mentioned in those two verses (John 8:29, 5:19). That doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is separated or not working with both the Father and the Son. The Son has inseparability to the Father and the Holy Spirit is in according to the Divine Nature. And the three persons are undivided and inseparable in the economic relations because they are undivided inseparable in the Divine Nature. They do not have separate causes in the economy.

 

[jeremiah1five]

As I said to Binyawmene, those speak of the work of the Holy Spirit indwelling those repentant believers who have been saved.

That might be the result of the sending, but He could not come unless sent.

It is not the totality of the person and work of the Holy Spirit.

No, it is not. At least, not the work, but the totality of the Person is the Holy Spirit Himself.

It does not limit who the Holy Spirit is.

Seems we're, or you are, talking about something else. I merely gave you Scripture to support what I say that the Holy Spirit "emanates" from the Father and the Son.

We first see the Holy Spirit in the Genesis account of creation in Genesis 1:2.

You seem to jump around a lot. The bottom line I am saying is the Spirit is sent forth by both the Father and the Son. He does what He is sent to do, which is another subject. He doesn't do what He wants. He follows the dictates of the Father and the Son. And whether His action is seen to appear independent He is not.

"...for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:" Jn. 16:13.

There is an order in Trinity. And presently since the day of the Feast of Harvest the Holy Spirit is in the world to apply to God's elect the salvation bought by the Son in accordance with the will of the Father.
It is the Father's Plan (salvation).
The Son implemented that Plan.
The Holy Spirit applies that Plan to God's elect, those whose names are in the book of life of the lamb slain (Rev. 13: 8.)

That had nothing to do with what was said about Him in the passages you referenced.

I commented. You asked a question. Stay focused.

In a similar way, we know that the Holy Spirit was present and active in the lives of various individuals throughout the OT and the NT distinct from His role as Comforter indwelling the life of NT saints.

All three members were active, not only the Spirit.
"Comforter" is the Greek "parakletos" and is translated as "comforter" and "advocate." It means "an intercessor, consoler." It also means "along side" implying being "with" 'someone.'
He may indwell 'you' but you're not fully saved. He is our "unction" or down payment towards a full payment at a future date. Until then we are one-third saved. I'm sure you're going to disagree with this but it's easily explained if you are reason-able.

 

[JIM]

In the Trinity doctrine, we don't define a "person" as a "being." Set aside your modern dictionaries. They are of no use when discussing Historical Trinitarianism.

I really have no interest nor capability to discuss "Historical Trinitarianism". I am really only interested in that the Bible has to say on the subj

Yes, different roles of persons, but the one selfsame Being. There is not three beings, but one Being. Athanasian Creed laid that out very clearly.

And I really couldn't give two hoots about any Athanasian Creed.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I really have no interest nor capability to discuss "Historical Trinitarianism". I am really only interested in that the Bible has to say on the subj

And I really couldn't give two hoots about any Athanasian Creed.

That's the reason why you're mixed up.
One thing to know is God's revelation of Himself and His plan for man is progressive. Each generation of His people receives a part of His revelation of Himself and His plan. God controls the light of enlightenment and illumination a person receives as things are hidden until God determines when to reveal them. As Daniel said, what He was told was to be "closed" until the time of the end. We are getting closer to that end and new things are being revealed to His people.
I said HIS PEOPLE.

 

[JIM]

Seems we're, or you are, talking about something else. I merely gave you Scripture to support what I say that the Holy Spirit "emanates" from the Father and the Son.

Define "emanates" as you think it is used in scripture. I couldn't find it.

You seem to jump around a lot.

Just speaking about the Holy Spirit.

He doesn't do what He wants. He follows the dictates of the Father and the Son. And whether His action is seen to appear independent He is not.

Of course He does what He wants. He is God, just as is the Father and the Son.

"...for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:" Jn. 16:13.

But Jesus said nearly the same thing about Himself John 5:30). All three are One.

He may indwell 'you' but you're not fully saved. He is our "unction" or down payment towards a full payment at a future date. Until then we are one-third saved. I'm sure you're going to disagree with this but it's easily explained if you are reason-able.

Such a pitiful presentation of soteriology. Paul declares that we have been Justified. Please explain what you think that means if we have been only one-third saved. Or perhaps better yet, please explain what you think Paul meant when he said "...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- "(Eph 2:5) or "For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph 2:8). Or you could just point out to me anywhere that it says that we are now only one-third saved and we could start with that assuming of course that you are reason-able.

 

[JIM]

That's the reason why you're mixed up.
One thing to know is God's revelation of Himself and His plan for man is progressive. Each generation of His people receives a part of His revelation of Himself and His plan. God controls the light of enlightenment and illumination a person receives as things are hidden until God determines when to reveal them. As Daniel said, what He was told was to be "closed" until the time of the end. We are getting closer to that end and new things are being revealed to His people.
I said HIS PEOPLE.

I'll just bet that you think that you are one of those who has received a part of His revelation of Himself and His plan. If that is the case, you need to provide some proof. But of course, you can't do that.

 

[Binyawmene]

I really have no interest nor capability to discuss "Historical Trinitarianism". I am really only interested in that the Bible has to say on the subj

And I really couldn't give two hoots about any Athanasian Creed.

That's fine, Jim. But I can encourage you. If you ever want to know what Trinitarianism teaches, then look at the whole of Scriptures. One thing for certain the Bible clearly speaks about three persons (John 14:16, Matthew 28:19, Romans 15:30, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Ephesians 4:4-6). But you haven't come up with any Scriptures that teaches separation between the persons.

John 8:29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.​

​

John 16:32 A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.​

Theologically speaking, the study of the Father is Paterology, the study of the Son is Christology, and the study of the Holy Spirit is Pneumatology. If you take the whole of Scriptures in view, then do you think you could demonstrate co-equality between the persons? You mention that there are three separate beings. My Bible teaches that God is one. Have you read this thread what Trinitarians mean by oneness.?

 

[JIM]

That's fine, Jim. But I can encourage you. If you ever want to know what Trinitarianism teaches, then look at the whole of Scriptures. One thing for certain the Bible clearly speaks about three persons (John 14:16, Matthew 28:19, Romans 15:30, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Ephesians 4:4-6). But you haven't come up with any Scriptures that teaches separation between the persons.

Here is one. I can provide many more.

Mar 1:9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 1:10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.
Mar 1:11 And a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

I would point out that verse 11 does not say, "I am my beloved Son; with me I am well pleased."

 

[Carbon]

I was responding to your comment about my being a "charismatic," which you are not.

Are you charismatic?

 

[Binyawmene]

I would point out that verse 11 does not say, "I am my beloved Son; with me I am well pleased."

The Trinity teaches "oneness in Being" and not "oneness in Person." When Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). They are not one in person, but one in Being. The Son is consubstantial with the Father and not the Father himself. Would you like to try again and provide a Bible verse that teaches separation between the persons?

 

[Eleanor]

Are you charismatic?

No, I'm not.