For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God: The Father or the Lord Jesus?

[CherubRam]

Next time try to actually address the evidence I presented rather than dodging it.

Va-room!

 

[Fred]

Va-room!

The sound of you running away from the evidence.

 

[Ladodgers6]

For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God, the Father is the Creator and Jesus is a creature - no matter how highly exalted, He (Jesus) is still a created being. Yet in quite a few places in the New Testament the authors don't clearly distinguish as to whether or not they are referring to the Father (the Creator) or to the Lord Jesus ('the creature' for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God).
There is a vast difference between the Creator and the creature. To confuse the two could easily lead to idolatry. This is something the biblical authors (of course, God as well) would never want to happen. Therefore, to clearly identify to whom is being referred to is of vital importance.


So for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God please identify to whom is being referred to in all the passages below. It may take some time, but it took me quite a bit of time putting this list together.


John 7:18 (He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him)

Acts 1:24 (Lord)
Acts 2:20 (Lord)
Acts 2:21 (Lord)
Acts 2:25 (Lord)
Acts 2:47 (Lord)
Acts 5:9 (Lord)
Acts 5:41 (Name)
Acts 7:60 (Lord)
Acts 8:22 (Lord
Acts 8:24 (Lord)
Acts 9:1 (Lord)
Acts 9:28 (Lord)
Acts 9:31 (Lord)
Acts 9:35 (Lord)
Acts 9:42 (Lord)
Acts 10:14 (Lord)
Acts 10:33 (Lord)
Acts 11:21 (Lord X2)
Acts 11:23 (Lord)
Acts 11:24 (Lord)
Acts 12:11 (Lord; His)
Acts 13:2 (Lord)
Acts 14:3 (Lord)
Acts 14:23 (Lord)
Acts 15:40 (Lord)
Acts 16:14 (Lord)
Acts 21:14 (Lord)

Romans 8:27 (He who searches the hearts)
Romans 9:33 (Him)
Romans 10:11 (Him)
Romans 10:12 (Him)
Romans 10:13 (Lord)
Romans 10:14 (Him X2)
Romans 12:11 (Lord)

1 Corinthians 1:31 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 2:16 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:4 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:5 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:19 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 6:17 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:9 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:21 (Lord X2)
1 Corinthians 10:22 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:26 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 11:32 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 14:37 (Lord's)
1 Corinthians 15:58 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 16:7 (Lord)

2 Corinthians 3:16 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 3:17 (Lord X2)
2 Corinthians 3:18 (Lord X 2)
2 Corinthians 5:11 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:5 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:19 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:21 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:8 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:17 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:18 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 12:1 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 12:8 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 13:10 (Lord)

Galatians 2:8 (He)

Ephesians 2:21 (Lord)
Ephesians 6:9 (Master)
Ephesians 6:10 (Lord)

Colossians 1:10 (Lord)
Colossians 1:22 (Him)
Colossians 1:29 (His)
Colossians 3:22 (Lord)
Colossians 4:1 (Master)

1 Thessalonians 4:6 (Lord)
1 Thessalonians 5:24 (He X2)
1 Thessalonians 5:27 (Lord)

2 Thessalonians 3:1 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:3 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:4 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:5 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:16 (Lord X2)

1 Timothy 1:14 (Lord)
1 Timothy 6:15 (Lord)

2 Timothy 1:12 (He; Him)
2 Timothy 1:16 (Lord)
2 Timothy 1:18 (Lord X2)
2 Timothy 2:7 (Lord)
2 Timothy 2:11 (Him X2)
2 Timothy 2:12 (Him X2; He)
2 Timothy 2:13 (He X2; Himself)
2 Timothy 2:19 (Lord X2)
2 Timothy 2:21 (Master)
2 Timothy 2:22 (Lord)
2 Timothy 2:24 (Lord)
2 Timothy 3:11 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:8 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:14 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:17 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:18 (Lord)

Titus 2:14 (Himself X2; His)

Hebrews 1:10 (Lord)
Hebrews 10:37 (He)
Hebrews 12:14 (Lord)

James 2:7 (Name)
James 4:10 (Lord)
James 4:12 (Lawgiver and Judge)
James 4:15 (Lord)
James 5:7 (Lord)
James 5:8 (Lord)
James 5:9 (Judge)
James 5:10 (Lord)
James 5:11 (Lord's; Lord)
James 5:14 (Lord)
James 5:15 (Lord)

1 Peter 2:6 (Him)
1 Peter 2:25 (Shepherd and Guardian)
1 Peter 3:12 (Lord X2)
1 Peter 3:15 (Lord)
1 Peter 4:5 (Him)

2 Peter 2:1 (Master)
2 Peter 2:9 (Lord)
2 Peter 2:11 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:8 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:9 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:10 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:14 (Him)
2 Peter 3:15 (Lord)

1 John 2:3 (Him; His)
1 John 2:4 (Him; His)
1 John 2:5 (His; Him)
1 John 2:6 (Him; He)
1 John 2:8 (Him)
1 John 2:12 (His)
1 John 2:13 (Him)
1 John 2:14 (Him)
1 John 2:20 (Holy One)
1 John 2:25 (He)
1 John 2:27 (Him; His; Him)
1 John 2:28 (Him; He; Him; His)
1 John 2:29 (He; Him)
1 John 3:2 (He; Him X2; He)
1 John 3:3 (Him; He)
1 John 3:5 (He; Him)
1 John 3:6 (Him X3)
1 John 3:7 (He)
1 John 3:24 (His; Him; He X3)
1 John 4:4 (He)
1 John 4:13 (Him; He X2; His)
1 John 4:17 (He)
1 John 4:19 (He)
1 John 4:21 (Him)
1 John 5:14 (Him; His; He)
1 John 5:15 (He; Him)
1 John 5:20 (Him X2; He)

3 John 7 (Name)

Jude 4 (Master; Lord)
Jude 5 (Lord)
Jude 14 (Lord)

Revelation 1:6 (Him)
Revelation 6:10 (Master)
Revelation 11:15 (He)
Revelation 14:13 (Lord)
Revelation 18:4 (My)
Revelation 20:6 (Him)
Revelation 22:3 (His; Him)
Revelation 22:4 (His; His)
Revelation 22:12 (To whom do the pronouns refer to?)
Revelation 22:13 (To whom do the appellations refer to?)

By Scripture Alone. I favorite is John 14 where Philip asks Jesus to show us the Father. Look at how Jesus replies.

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

Jesus gets straight to the point even gets sarcastic at Philip saying How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Whoever has seen me HAS SEEN the Father! This is not hard to understand on what Jesus is saying. But the mystery of the Trinity on how it works; one in essence three in person.​

 

[CherubRam]

• Genesis 1:27
  So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
  
  
• Genesis 9:6
  “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.
  
  
• Colossians 3:10
  and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

 

[Eleanor]

A shared title does not mean same person.

How does that relate to Jesus of Nazareth being the Messiah never being a belief in Judaism as the Trinity has never been a belief in Judaism?

 

[grace2]

By Scripture Alone.

But you skip what is the most important commandment that Jesus talks about.

This is what Jesus says:

The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f]

Jesus says the Lord is one.

Jesus is not saying the Lord is triune.

You guys have changed the Scripture.

I am sure what the Bible says about changing the word.

 

[CrowCross]

But you skip what is the most important commandment that Jesus talks about.

This is what Jesus says:

The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f]

Jesus says the Lord is one.

Jesus is not saying the Lord is triune.

You guys have changed the Scripture.

I am sure what the Bible says about changing the word.

Yes, the trinitarian God is one in nature and essence. How is that changing the word?

 

[Runningman]

Yes, the trinitarian God is one in nature and essence. How is that changing the word?

What if the Bible says that there are things about Jesus and God that aren't the same? For example, God is called the Almighty and Jesus isn't. There are actually a lot of titles Jesus and God don't have in common.

For example, Jesus isn't the Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25 or anywhere else in the Bible.

Jesus isn't the Sovereign Lord, God, or Creator in Acts 4:24-27 or Acts 17:24,25

Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in Acts 3:13.

Jesus isn't YHWH or the I AM in Exodus 3:14.

Jesus isn't Almighty God in Revelation 1:4-8 or Revelation 21:22.

The list goes on and on.

 

[grace2]

What if the Bible says that there are things about Jesus and God that aren't the same? For example, God is called the Almighty and Jesus isn't. There are actually a lot of titles Jesus and God don't have in common.

For example, Jesus isn't the Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25 or anywhere else in the Bible.

Jesus isn't the Sovereign Lord, God, or Creator in Acts 4:24-27 or Acts 17:24,25

Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in Acts 3:13.

Jesus isn't YHWH or the I AM in Exodus 3:14.

Jesus isn't Almighty God in Revelation 1:4-8 or Revelation 21:22.

The list goes on and on.

You have been pointing out all those already but they just disregard them.

I hope some readers will read all your refutations and save them from mirely gospel.

then your effort will not be in vain.

 

[Fred]

Jesus isn't the Sovereign Lord, God, or Creator in Acts 4:24-27

Acts 4:24
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O, Master, it is Thou who hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them.

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all who are in them, heard I saying, To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.

The creation worships the Creator.

 

[Runningman]

The creation worships the Creator.

Acts 4:24
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O, Master, it is Thou who hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them.

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all who are in them, heard I saying, To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.

The creation worships the Creator.

??

Thank you for quoting those verses. Yes, creation worships the Creator who isn't Jesus.

 

[Fred]

??

Yes, you are confused.

Thank you for quoting those verses. Yes, creation worships the Creator who isn't Jesus.

The Lamb who is being worshiped by creation in Revelation 5:13 is Jesus.
The creation worships the Creator.

Simple.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, you are confused.



The Lamb who is being worshiped in Revelation 5:13 is Jesus.

Simple.

Jesus isn't God.

See Revelation 7:

9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God,

 

[Fred]

10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”

Thanks for quoting a passage where the Lord Jesus is being worshiped.
The creation should worship the Creator.

 

[Runningman]

Thanks for quoting a passage where the Lord Jesus is being worshiped.

Person 1 = God on the throne
Person 2 = the Lamb

Result = they fell down and worshipped God, not the Lamb.

God and the Lamb aren't the same person. The Lamb isn't the Lord God Almighty.

See Revelation 1:4-8 and Revelation 21:22

22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

 

[Fred]

Person 1 = God on the throne
Person 2 = the Lamb

Great. Jesus isn't the Father. You will perhaps do well arguing with a Modalist, but you can't escape the fact that the creation worships Jesus (the Creator).
You have quickly run away from Revelation 5:13.

 

[Runningman]

Great. Jesus isn't the Father. You will perhaps do well arguing with a Modalist, but you can't escape the fact that the creation worships Jesus (the Creator).
You have quickly run away from Revelation 5:13.

Yes the Father is the only true God according to John 17:3. You argument isn't with me, but with Jesus and the apostles. Maybe you should stop challenging them so much.

 

[Fred]

Yes the Father is the only true God according to John 17:3. You argument isn't with me, but with Jesus and the apostles. Maybe you should stop challenging them so much.

Revelation 5:13 is still there.
The Lamb who is being worshiped by creation in Revelation 5:13 is Jesus.
The creation worships the Creator.

 

[Runningman]

Revelation 5:13 is still there.

Yes it is and that is why I have shown you other verses/passages to help you grasp that God and the Lamb aren't the same person. You aren't supposed to just disregard them and laser focus in on single verse as if it's all that matters.

 

[Fred]

Yes it is and that is why I have shown you other verses/passages

Oh, I knew you would in order to escape Revelation 5:13.

I know your confused method of evasion.