The elephant named Trinity.~

[Arial]

Nope. See the not? That makes it a negative claim

You are positively stating that Jesus is not God. I am positively stating that Jesus is God. You have no less of a burden to prove your statement than I have to prove mine.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why do you?

Still no answer @Arial?

 

[Arial]

LOL. Yes, it is explicit. YHWH is God and no one else, includes Jesus not being God.

You keep wanting to pretend each side of the argument has an equal burden. That is false.

The Bible stating that God is YHWH does not exclude Jesus being God. The passage you gave was in a particular context, dealing with a particular historical situation. All before Christ had ever come. And trinitarianism agrees that God is one---meaning there is only One God, and it is not a statement of His manner of being.

And you have a burden of truth to defend your statement that Jesus is not God because I ASKED YOU TO. WHy don't you just do it?

 

[Arial]

Still no answer @Arial?

Because the Bible teaches the trinity. Jesus himself declared Himself to be God when He said He was the light of the world, the bread that came down from heaven, that He is the one who came down from heaven and who would ascend back to heaven. When He said He had completed His mission and was returning to where He was before with the glory He had before in John 17.

 

[Arial]

No. This was already blown out of the water. Let me repeat. The trinity is not in the Bible.

To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

What is your answer to why there is no such a trinity verse in the Bible?

There are plenty of scriptures that show God as a triune being. Everytime it mentions the Son as doing specific things, having come as one of us for a specific purpose. Everytime it shows Him doing what only God can do, sitting on the throne of God, called by the same names as God, commanded to honor Him in worship, even His accepting worship which not even angels will do. Having the same Spirit as God. Both the Father and the Son said to send the Spirit forth for the sake of the elect. And the Holy Spirit doing the other specific and necessary acts of redemption; new birth in Christ, sealing in Christ, teaching of Christ, giving the Word, teaching the word. All of them being of the same essence and being co-equal in their deity. All eternal. It does not have to state that as explicitly as you do in order to be true. It shows itself to be true.

So perhaps the answer to the question is that no one understands the things of God unless the Spirit reveals it to them. Much the same as Jesus deliberately often spoke in parables.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

You are positively stating that Jesus is not God.

Abuse of language. Not is a negation not a positive.

As I write 4 pillars must be violated at every turn:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture.

YHWH is God and there is none else. Is 45:5 This is explicit and excludes anyone else, including Jesus.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

There are plenty of scriptures that show God as a triune being.

Not a one.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Because the Bible teaches the trinity.

Untrue as I showed. There is no trinity verse in the Bible.

 

[Arial]

Abuse of language. Not is a negation not a positive.

Is "Jesus is not God." a declarative sentence? It is stating something as fact. Is it outside of logic for me to ask where the Bible explicitly states that He isn't God? Just because "is not" is a negative, in that it states what He isn't instead of what He is, does not mean it is not necessary for you to provide evidence that is just as explicit as the request for an explicit statement in Scripture that says He is God.

If what you are really trying to say is that you can't prove a negative, that is also false. Proving negatives is a foundational aspect of logic. The scriptures I have given showing by the preponderance of the evidence within Scripture that He likely is deity, and quite explicitly. It really only needs to say it once, since it is the word of God.

You could try and disprove my position by proving with the preponderance of the evidence that the Bible explicitly states that Jesus is not God or even that it is more likely that He is not God. In which case you would have to acknowledge that there is at least some possibility that He is.

But you would have to do it with Scripture itself, as that is our standard of truth and authority. And as I have given examples of Jesus Himself declaring that He is God, and of the apostles doing the same thing, and even the Prophets, you would need to show me how they are not saying that, iow what is being communicated instead of what I say---and (anticipating the usual work around) without resorting to fallacious intent on the part of translators, inaccurate translation or improper grammar or punctuation.

As I write 4 pillars must be violated at every turn:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

Must be violated? Why? Here are some explicit sciptures for you. Evidently you didn't read them.

John 1:1 He is identified with God himself.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father has made him known.
Thomas in John 20:28 "My Lord and my God!"
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Romans 9:5 "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Titus 2:13 "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness---
2 Pet 1:1 To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
Heb 1:8 Your throne O God is forever and ever quoted from Ps 45:7-8
Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

In several places in the NT Jesus is said to be active in creation and there is only one Creator.

 

[Arial]

Sure it is. In logic, statistics and law, the burden is on the one making the positive claim.
H0. Defendent is guilty.
Ha. Defendent is NOT guilty.

P1. Defendant violated Law ABC.
P2. There is no Law ABC.
C. Defendent is NOT guilty.

The null hypothesis (H0) states a positive claim. If the prosecution fails to prove the claim, then the alternative hypothesis (Ha) is accepted. That the trinity statement above in red is not in the Bible is an affirmative defense.

But that is not what we are dealing with here. Two statements: Jesus is God. Jesus is not God. You can't fall back on the illogic that your assertion is negative and therefore you don't have to give biblical support to the claim, and therefore your claim must be true. Really!

Imagine for a moment that Jesus is NOT God. The NT writers would not write what Jesus is not. Instead they write what he is, the long awaited suffering servant OF God. You have no answer to why language should be abused to construe a servant of God is meant to refer to God himself. See Acts 3:13.

I assert that the NT writers did write that Jesus is God. I have shown you. They also make clear that the long awaited suffering servant is God the Son.

 

[Arial]

Untrue as I showed. There is no trinity verse in the Bible.

Have you ever read the one that says to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Have you read the one where Jesus says in order to inherit the kingdom one has to be born of the Spirit, and a bit later says born of God? There is no verse that uses the word "trinity." Is there a verse that says Jesus was created?

 

[Arial]

Not a one.

Wrong.

 

[grace2]

The IDOLATRY is seen in their unwillingness to even admit the made up doctrine is not in the Bible. Yet, they take this non-existent doctrine as the central message of Scripture.

You've already read a simple question I ask all the time. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why do you? Again no answer. (I know the answer is IDOLATRY).

They are forced to rely on reading it in. The more ambiguous the text, the more they doctrinally invest in it. A few years back I realized that with the possible exception of Luke, the entire Bible is written by Jewish monotheists, (unitarians) who reject the trinity to this day. Jesus was a Jew born under the law, required to believe in the unitarian god of the OT. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and there is no evidence he ever stopped being Jewish.

At the same time, they ignore Bible verses that undermine their idol. God's name is not Jesus but YHWH and "me" and "I" tells you this one God is singular.


I am Yahweh, and there is none else.
Besides me, there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5 (REV)

Yes, it is idolatry.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Is "Jesus is not God." a declarative sentence?

Word play. Positive claim. Negative Claim. Not the same.

In a trial the Defendant is presumed innocent. In logic the positive claim is presumed false UNLESS it is proven.

 

[Rella]

https://ehrmanblog.org/is-the-trinity-in-the-bible/
There is nowhere in Bible that we have an explicit reference to the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, and the three are actually one. With an exception. The doctrine of the Trinity DOES seem to be explicitly taught (or nearly explicitly taught) in 1 John 5:7. Here is what it says:

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.

The Peshitta says it this way.
7And The Spirit testifies because The Spirit is the truth. 8And there are three testifying: The Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three of them are in one.

Greek Interlinear
7For three are the ones bearing witness in the heaven, the Father, the word, and the Holy Spirit, and these the three one are.
8 And three are the ones bearing witness on the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three in the one are.

 

[grace2]

https://ehrmanblog.org/is-the-trinity-in-the-bible/
There is nowhere in Bible that we have an explicit reference to the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, and the three are actually one. With an exception. The doctrine of the Trinity DOES seem to be explicitly taught (or nearly explicitly taught) in 1 John 5:7. Here is what it says:

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.

The Peshitta says it this way.
7And The Spirit testifies because The Spirit is the truth. 8And there are three testifying: The Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three of them are in one.

Greek Interlinear
7For three are the ones bearing witness in the heaven, the Father, the word, and the Holy Spirit, and these the three one are.
8 And three are the ones bearing witness on the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three in the one are.

1 John 5:7

New International Version

7 For there are three that testify:

It does not say much.​

 

[Arial]

Word play. Positive claim. Negative Claim. Not the same.

In a trial the Defendant is presumed innocent. In logic the positive claim is presumed false UNLESS it is proven.

Off topic. Time to move on from a dunky grammar lesson. I am still waiting on you to comment on the scriptures I gave.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Off topic. Time to move on from a dunky grammar lesson. I am still waiting on you to comment on the scriptures I gave.

It is totally on topic! 4 pillars have to be violated at very turn to “support” the inherently contradictory doctrine.

And I’m still waiting for you to answer. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why do you?

 

[Arial]

It is totally on topic! 4 pillars have to be violated at very turn to “support” the inherently contradictory doctrine.

And I’m still waiting for you to answer. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why do you?

Do you mean the Trinity violates four pillars?

I did answer that question. Post #84.

Have you ever considered that it is possible for you to be wrong? And do you want to know God's absolute truth, even if it comes at the cost of having to endure the breaking down and giving up of something you hold dear in your religion? Even if the cost is being humbled to sack cloth and ashes before the mighty hand of God?

Not answered.

The question:What did Jesus do? IOW what was the destination and what is the endgame?

Not answered.

Where does the Bible explicitly say "Jesus is not God"?

Not answered. Answer avoided by claiming the Bible wouldn't say what He isn't so that is the reason for not answering. One would expect Jesus and the Apostles both to have explicitly said he wasn't God, lest some get the wrong idea and think He was. Surely, surely they themselves declared He was God, and surely, surely there were false teachers who said he was not. Oh wait---the Pharisees and Saducees!

So how do you arrive at the idea that it is saying that He isn't God? Can you answer that question?

Not answered.

Nine different times in the NT Jesus is referred to as God.

John 1:1 He is identified with God himself.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father has made him known.
Thomas in John 20:28 "My Lord and my God!"
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Romans 9:5 "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Titus 2:13 "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness---
2 Pet 1:1 To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
Heb 1:8 Your throne O God is forever and ever quoted from Ps 45:7-8
Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

In several places in the NT Jesus is said to be active in creation and there is only one Creator.

Ignored entirely.

So what is the theological reason that Jesus cannot be God? You ought to tell me what that is instead of just making the statement. Are you going to?

Not answered.

Have you ever read the one that says to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Have you read the one where Jesus says in order to inherit the kingdom one has to be born of the Spirit, and a bit later says born of God? There is no verse that uses the word "trinity." Is there a verse that says Jesus was created?

Not answered.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Do you mean the Trinity violates four pillars?

Yes.

I did answer that question. Post #84.

Oh. Sorry. Missed it. Busy day.

I’ll circle back tomorrow and read these other questions you claim I have not answered.

Jesus himself declared Himself to be God when He said He was the light of the world,

Appeal to Strawman. Even if this were true - and it most certainly is not a teaching of his - it says nothing about the trinity!

I already wrote about this. Many obsess over the man-is-god thesis do not realize even if true, it does not support the trinity.

If others declare themselves the light of the world does that make them God also?