The elephant named Trinity.~

[Soldier of Christ1516]

The question: What did Jesus do? IOW what was the destination and what is the endgame?

What did Jesus do is a very vague question. Like all men, he did many things. I'm just not sure why you are even starting here. It's too ambiuous. Sorry.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Where does the Bible explicitly say "Jesus is not God"?

Answered in post #77.

Not answered. Answer avoided by claiming the Bible wouldn't say what He isn't so that is the reason for not answering.

You just don't like my answer. I did not merely write what the Bible would not say. I quoted Isaiah 45:5. YHWH is God and there is no other God. That is where the Bible says Jesus is NOT God; Isaiah 45:5. YHWH is God and there is no other God. It does not get more explicit than that!

Again, don't depend on a false standard of exact words that are designed to fail. Given, Isaish 45:5 and MANY other texts the prophets would not say who God is NOT as they said who God is. Simple.

 

[grace2]

Responding to one thing at a time is easier.

They hate it when the problematic claims are challenged.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

They hate it when the problematic claims are challenged.

Which makes starting threads like this seeking confirmation bias, an echo chamber.

The simple truth is the trinity is not in the Bible, not the word and not the concept. Jesus did not teach it. This explains why folks like @Arial have to read it into the text, e..g., Jesus saying 'I am the light of the world" = "support" for the inherently contradictory doctrine.

He cannot answer that we too are declared to be the light and salt of the world. Applying trinitarian thinking, this means billions of believers are also God, the one God of Scripture.

I pointed out several times: The mortal enemies of the concept of the trinity are these 4 pillars, which have to be violated at every turn:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

 

[grace2]

Which makes starting threads like this seeking confirmation bias, an echo chamber.

The simple truth is the trinity is not in the Bible, not the word and not the concept. Jesus did not teach it. This explains why folks like @Arial have to read it into the text, e..g., Jesus saying 'I am the light of the world" = "support" for the inherently contradictory doctrine.

He cannot answer that we too are declared to be the light and salt of the world. Applying trinitarian thinking, this means billions of believers are also God, the one God of Scripture.

I pointed out several times: The mortal enemies of the concept of the trinity are these 4 pillars, which have to be violated at every turn:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

Thank you for your faithfulness.

You have patience dealing with the clever tactics of triune god worshippers.

 

[Arial]

I pointed out several times: The mortal enemies of the concept of the trinity are these 4 pillars, which have to be violated at every turn:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

Definition: The Trinity describes a relationship not of three God's, but of one God who is three persons. The word "Trinity" is used to define the fullness of the Godhead in terms of its unity and diversity. It is not tritheism which is usually how it is fought against as if that were the teaching. The unity is expressed in terms of essence and the diversity in terms of essence.

On the one hand the Bible affirms the unity of God (Deut 6:4) and on the other hand the Bible fully affirms the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the distinction of the work done by each member. The work of salvation is common to all three. Yet the activity of each is distinct. Differing operations are assumed by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father initiates creation and redemption, the Son redeems the creature, and the Holy Spirit, regenerates and sanctifies, applying the redemption to believers. (Heb 5:5; Luke 1:29-37; John 3:1-14: John 1; John 17)

Logic: The mysteries of God are not held within the confines of human logic. Human logic is imperfect, flawed, based only on existence within a finite plane, and cannot touch the infinite, unique, utter otherness of of the eternal, infinite, self existent God of the universe, with anything other than faith in what God reveals. He reveals in His word the concept of Trinity. The concept of Trinity is logical for God in His very character and being is always logical. It simply does not fit our logic, which says such a thing is impossible. The logic we use in the matter is that if the above under definition exist everywhere in the story of redemption, and it does, then logically God must be triune in nature.

Language usage: much to vague as to its meaning to even begin to address. It would have to be connected with specifics.

Explicit scripture: Given above.

 

[Arial]

Answered in post #77.

You claimed it was an answer but it was not.

You just don't like my answer. I did not merely write what the Bible would not say. I quoted Isaiah 45:5. YHWH is God and there is no other God. That is where the Bible says Jesus is NOT God; Isaiah 45:5. YHWH is God and there is no other God. It does not get more explicit than that!

But I showed you where it wasn't saying what you claim at all. No one is denying that there is only one God. The question is why does the fact that there is only one God mean Jesus is not God? Especially since I gave you scriptures that explicitly say He is.

Again, don't depend on a false standard of exact words that are designed to fail. Given, Isaish 45:5 and MANY other texts the prophets would not say who God is NOT as they said who God is. Simple.

You are using that one scripture to be saying what Jesus is not.

 

[Rella]

Sorry, Ill be brief.

@grace2 @Soldier of Christ1516 Each of you please explain, in your own words and use whatever biblical support you can

What does this mean?
1 John 5:7.

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.

Written by the author of the Gospel of John.
“The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved.” In other translations, John also refers to himself as the “Beloved Disciple.”

 

[Arial]

What did Jesus do is a very vague question. Like all men, he did many things. I'm just not sure why you are even starting here. It's too ambiuous. Sorry.

The question is not vague and the answer is not vague.

What He came to do: Gen 3:14-15; John 1:29

What He did on the cross, and that the believer awaits. Rev 21:1-7

 

[grace2]

Sorry, Ill be brief.

@grace2 @Soldier of Christ1516 Each of you please explain, in your own words and use whatever biblical support you can

What does this mean?
1 John 5:7.

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.

Written by the author of the Gospel of John.
“The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved.” In other translations, John also refers to himself as the “Beloved Disciple.”

1 John 5:7

New International Version

7 For there are three that testify:

I don't see anything that testifying.

why is that?

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Definition: The Trinity describes a relationship not of three God's, but of one God who is three persons.

Each of the 4 pillars have to be corrupted. You start with your doctrine, then twist and turn everything to "support" it. The obessession with 3-is-1 has its roots in Paganism not Scripture.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Sorry, Ill be brief.

@grace2 @Soldier of Christ1516 Each of you please explain, in your own words and use whatever biblical support you can

What does this mean?
1 John 5:7.

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.

It means you are deliberately relying on a known bad translation to "support" your doctrine.

7Indeed, there are three testifying: 8the spirit, and the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.
1 John 5:7 (REV)

I take the verse to mean the spirit, water (baptism into the spirit), and blood (sacrifice of the lamb) have testimony that is the same.

Hope this helps.

 

[Arial]

Each of the 4 pillars have to be corrupted. You start with your doctrine, then twist and turn everything to "support" it. The obessession with 3-is-1 has its roots in Paganism not Scripture.

WTfudgecycle! Perhaps that is what you are doing? Show me where I corrupted anything other than your own belief? Your premise of the pillars is a non starter. It won't accept what the other side offers and so calls it corrupted of your imaginary four pillars. You are asking me in effect to support my view by supporting your view. YIKES!!!

You still have some questions you haven't answered.

 

[Rella]

It means you are deliberately relying on a known bad translation to "support" your doctrine.

7Indeed, there are three testifying: 8the spirit, and the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.
1 John 5:7 (REV)

I take the verse to mean the spirit, water (baptism into the spirit), and blood (sacrifice of the lamb) have testimony that is the same.

Hope this helps.

Nope. You are the one with a bad translation, Your ESV is as bad a translation as the NIV.

2 languages spoken by Jesus of the time.....

The Peshitta says it this way.
7And The Spirit testifies because The Spirit is the truth. 8And there are three testifying: The Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three of them are in one.

Greek Interlinear
7For three are the ones bearing witness in the heaven, the Father, the word, and the Holy Spirit, and these the three one are.
8 And three are the ones bearing witness on the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three in the one are.
Berean Literal Bible
For there are three bearing testimony: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood—and these are three in one.

King James Bible
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

New King James Version
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

Literal Standard Version
because [there] are three who are testifying [[in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one;

Majority Standard Bible
For there are three that testify [[in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit—and these three one are.

Webster's Bible Translation
For there are three that bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

Young's Literal Translation
because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;

 

[grace2]

Nope. You are the one with a bad translation, Your ESV is as bad a translation as the NIV.

You guys need to stop playing games at the expense of true Gospel.

You see that's why it is meaningless to debate with you guys.

@Soldier of Christ1516

You have been doing a great job exposing their false teaching.

Many good ones came and gone.

I am the only one who is sticking around to defend Jesus' Father and our Father.

I can do that because I don't take the bait to waste my energy dealing with their clever inventions.

I will keep on spreading to the world that God is not a triune god.

This is my mission for my God and my Lord, Jesus Christ.

I am not here to convert them because they don't have ears to hear.

 

[Rella]

It means you are deliberately relying on a known bad translation to "support" your doctrine.

7Indeed, there are three testifying: 8the spirit, and the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.
1 John 5:7 (REV)

I take the verse to mean the spirit, water (baptism into the spirit), and blood (sacrifice of the lamb) have testimony that is the same.

Hope this helps.

Sorry Reverend RV.... Hope this will be my last.

AND

From the Textus Receptus Bibles

English Majority Text 2009 (Only cause you are relying on the REV)

5:7	For there are three that bear witness:
5:8	the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

I stopped once I got up to the King James time... Every old one I could find with English Translations is following
Textus Recepticus and Textus Vatinicus I have no English Translations for.

Wycliffe Bible 1382​

5:7	For thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in heuene, the Fadir, the Sone, and the Hooli Goost; and these thre ben oon.
5:8	`And thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in erthe, the spirit, water, and blood; and these thre ben oon.

Tyndale Bible 1534​

5:7	(For ther are thre which beare recorde in heuen the father the worde and the wholy goost. And these thre are one)
5:8	For there are thre which beare recorde (in erth the sprete and water and bloud: and these thre are one.

Coverdale Bible 1535​

5:7	(For there are thre which beare recorde in heauen: the father, the worde, and the holy goost, & these thre are one.)
5:8	And there are thre which beare recorde in earth: the sprete, water and bloude, and these thre are one.

Matthew's Bible 1537​

5:7	(For there are thre which beare recorde in heauen, the father, the worde, and the holye Ghoste. And these thre are one.)
5:8	For there are thre, whiche beare recorde in earth the spyrite and water, and bloude, and these thre are one.

The Great Bible 1539​

5:7	(For ther are thre which beare recorde in heauen the father the worde & the wholy goost. And these thre are one.)
5:8	And ther are thre which beare recorde (in earth) the sprete & water, and bloud: & these thre are one.

Geneva Bible 1560​

5:7	For there are three, which beare recorde in heauen, the Father, the Worde, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.
5:8	And there are three, which beare record in the earth, the spirit, and the water and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Bishops Bible 1568​

5:7	For there are three which beare recorde in heauen, the father, the worde, and the holy ghost, and these three are one.
5:8	And there are three which beare recorde in earth, the spirite, and water, and blood, and these three agree in one.

All of these cannot be wrong... and the older the better is closer to the time of actual writing the original.

 

[Arial]

Is there a verse that says Jesus was created?

@Soldier of Christ1516 Not answered.

So how do you arrive at the idea that it is saying that He isn't God? Can you answer that question?

Not answered Ref, Is 45:5

Nine different times in the NT Jesus is referred to as God.

John 1:1 He is identified with God himself.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father has made him known.
Thomas in John 20:28 "My Lord and my God!"
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Romans 9:5 "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Titus 2:13 "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness---
2 Pet 1:1 To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
Heb 1:8 Your throne O God is forever and ever quoted from Ps 45:7-8
Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

In several places in the NT Jesus is said to be active in creation and there is only one Creator.

Still being ignored.

So what is the theological reason that Jesus cannot be God? You ought to tell me what that is instead of just making the statement. Are you going to?

Still not answered.

Have you ever read the one that says to baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Have you read the one where Jesus says in order to inherit the kingdom one has to be born of the Spirit, and a bit later says born of God? There is no verse that uses the word "trinity." Is there a verse that says Jesus was created?

Still not answered.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Your premise of the pillars is a non starter.

LOL. Definition. Son's are created beings.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

All of these cannot be wrong... and the older the better is closer to the time of actual writing the original.

Yet, they are wrong. Later translated relied on older manuscripts than the earlier translations. Don't confuse the two.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

@Soldier of Christ1516 Not answered.

Yea, I answered several times. Try to understand what Isaiah 45:5 means and the Shema and the 1C and that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus is NOT God but the son of God and most importantly not one verse says Jesus is God.

And none of that would even be support for the trinity. The trinity is not a 2-person doctrine though man-is-god thesis holders often act as though it is.

Affirmative Defense: There is no trinity verse or a verse says Jesus is God.

No point in continuing to pretend I did not answer. I answered. You just don't like the answer. Say crap like "non-starter" as if that means anything while you continue to violate the 4 pillars.