The elephant named Trinity.~

[Soldier of Christ1516]

I will get back to you later and show you where the Bible says Jesus is God in a number of places.

I look forward to such explicit teachings - not you reading into verses what you want and claim that as an explicit teaching.

 

[grace2]

I look forward to such explicit teachings - not you reading into verses what you want and claim that as an explicit teaching.

I have asked this over and over over the years and none can show it.

Of course, they cannot because there is none.

Trin doctrine is made up for professed believers who have not been reading the Bible.

I know this fact because I have served and had bible classes with them.

I have joined many churches in my neighborhood for several years.

they cannot learn in one-hour weekly classes.

They don't have a personal relationship with Jesus.

You cannot have a personal relationship with Him if you don't know what He teaches.

They dont understand what personal relationship, grace, humility, or born again mean.

Of course, they claim they do but they dont. their unproductive fruit is proving they are blind about their own faith.

Just like they claim the Trinity is in the Bible but it is not. If you have been reading the Bible, you cannot be fooled by their lies.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

I have asked this over and over over the years and none can show it.

Of course, they cannot because there is none.

The IDOLATRY is seen in their unwillingness to even admit the made up doctrine is not in the Bible. Yet, they take this non-existent doctrine as the central message of Scripture.

You've already read a simple question I ask all the time. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why do you? Again no answer. (I know the answer is IDOLATRY).

They are forced to rely on reading it in. The more ambiguous the text, the more they doctrinally invest in it. A few years back I realized that with the possible exception of Luke, the entire Bible is written by Jewish monotheists, (unitarians) who reject the trinity to this day. Jesus was a Jew born under the law, required to believe in the unitarian god of the OT. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and there is no evidence he ever stopped being Jewish.

At the same time, they ignore Bible verses that undermine their idol. God's name is not Jesus but YHWH and "me" and "I" tells you this one God is singular.


I am Yahweh, and there is none else.
Besides me, there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5 (REV)

 

[Arial]

I look forward to such explicit teachings - not you reading into verses what you want and claim that as an explicit teaching.

Then nothing will satisfy you. Nothing less than the words "Jesus is God." will be considered explicit by you even though uni's do not hold themselves to the same standard. Where does the Bible explicitly say "Jesus is not God"?

 

[Arial]

No. I’d like you to admit there is no Scripture that says Jesus has to be God to do what he did OR show the verse.

It isn't a matter of the Bible saying it. It is a matter of knowing what Jesus did and why it had to be done in the way it was. In other words, you have to know who God is and who man is in relation to Him, what went wrong, why God is fixing what went wrong, and why it would take the death of a substitute to fix it.

Even if I summarize all that, the post would be longer than many have any patience with. But I have asked you that question two or three times:

The question:What did Jesus do? IOW what was the destination and what is the endgame?

You seem unable or unwilling to answer. And that is fine. I have discovered that a great many really have no idea what the biblical answer is to that question, and refuse to learn it when it is offered. I was not born again knowing it and no one is. We start as babies, become toddlers, teenagers (and these are the most difficult to deal with because, just as in the natural, spiritual teenages think they know everything and old people are ignorant fuddy duddies.) Unfortunately not everyone grows out of that stage and moves on to maturity.

And I am willing to lay it out for you as best I can and according to what I have learned so far. I will however, put it in its own thread---working title Why Did the Redeemer Have to be Divine?

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Then nothing will satisfy you. Nothing less than the words "Jesus is God." will be considered explicit by you.

You got that right! Isaiah 45:5 is explicit. The name of God is YHWH (not Jesus) and there is no other God. Simple. So simple, even a trinitarian can understand it.

Where does the Bible explicitly say "Jesus is not God"?

You got to be kidding?! The burden is on the one making the postive claim.

Mark 1:1 says "Jesus Christ, the Son of God." It is explicit and fully satisfies who Jesus is. Trinitarians rely on mystical dualism. They grant Jesus is the son of God but reject the mutual exclusion principle of logic to assert he is also his own Father.

There is a very important theological reason that Jesus cannot be God. By contrast, there is no importance to Jesus having to be God to do what he did because the Bible does not say it. The Bible repeatedly says Jesus is a man. That's good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

It isn't a matter of the Bible saying it.

If the Bible said it, you'd say that's ALL that matters.

The absence of Biblical evidence is damning to the claim. It legal terms, its absence is an affirmative defense.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

You seem unable or unwilling to answer. And that is fine.

Odd counter-punching.

And I am willing to lay it out for you as best I can and according to what I have learned so far. I will however, put it in its own thread---working title Why Did the Redeemer Have to be Divine?

Divine, meaning OF God, yes.

Not a deity. Proof is the fact that Jesus died. The importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be theologically overstated.

Not a part of him but all of him, fully and completely dying is the payment of sins. If he did not die, it makes God a liar @ Romans 10:9 God raised him from the dead. A prerequisite for this to be true is that Jesus had to be dead. And I know you'll want to play word games, invoke dualism, etc, dead but not dead, etc. In reality, contradictions do not exist.

 

[Arial]

Not a part of him but all of him, fully and completely dying is the payment of sins. If he did not die, it makes God a liar @ Romans 10:9 God raised him from the dead. A prerequisite for this to be true is that Jesus had to be dead. And I know you'll want to play word games, invoke dualism, etc, dead but not dead, etc. In reality, contradictions do not exist.

As I said earlier: Before you have even read anything you present your arguments against what they might say. That makes very clear that you really have no interest in examining anything outside your own held beliefs, will not except it, will not discuss it, will not hear it. Are not willing to learn anything other than what you think you already know.

So why do you even bother to debate the subject?

 

[Arial]

If the Bible said it, you'd say that's ALL that matters.

The absence of Biblical evidence is damning to the claim. It legal terms, its absence is an affirmative defense.

This is disingenuous. You remove my statement "It isn't a matter of the Bible saying it." from its context both of the question you asked and the statements surrounding context, and call that a valid come back. And you do not bother to answer the question I asked that is parallel to the one you asked me.

You: "Where does the Bible explicitly say that Jesus is God?"
Me: "Where does the Bible explicitly say that Jesus is not God?"

So far you have not answered one single question I have asked you? Why? Is it because you have no answer? Is it because the answer would pull the rug out from under your comments? Is it because to you I am nothing and am too stupid to bother answering?

The absence of Biblical evidence is damning to the claim. It legal terms, its absence is an affirmative defense.

Rediculeous. That is not the case in any legal format. Also, there is biblical evidence, you are just unable to see or accept it. However it is never explicitly stated in the Bible that Jesus is not God either. So how do you arrive at the idea that it is saying that He isn't God? Can you answer that question?

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

As I said earlier: Before you have even read anything you present your arguments against what they might say. That makes very clear that you really have no interest in examining anything outside your own held beliefs, will not except it, will not discuss it, will not hear it. Are not willing to learn anything other than what you think you already know.

So why do you even bother to debate the subject?

Our posts are going past each other. You are not responsive to what I wrote and I have chosen not to respond to your Ad Homenims.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

@Arial,

It would be helpful if you could tone down the rhetoric. I am a Biblical Unitarian, which means I reject the trinity. I have my reasons and we can discuss those reasons. When I compare the reasons to reject the one God of the Bible to the reasons to accept the 3-in-1 god of the 4th century, I find reasons far more compelling on one side than the other.

Evidently, you see it the opposite way.

Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why do you?

Still no answer.

Also, there is biblical evidence, you are just unable to see or accept it.

No. This was already blown out of the water. Let me repeat. The trinity is not in the Bible.

To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is explicitly in the Bible. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

What is your answer to why there is no such a trinity verse in the Bible?

However it is never explicitly stated in the Bible that Jesus is not God either. So how do you arrive at the idea that it is saying that He isn't God? Can you answer that question?

Yes, I can answer it. Indeed, I already have.

At the same time, they ignore Bible verses that undermine their idol. God's name is not Jesus but YHWH and "me" and "I" tells you this one God is singular.


I am Yahweh, and there is none else.
Besides me, there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5 (REV)

If the Bible said it, you'd say that's ALL that matters.

The absence of Biblical evidence is damning to the claim. It legal terms, its absence is an affirmative defense.

Rediculeous. That is not the case in any legal format.

Sure it is. In logic, statistics and law, the burden is on the one making the positive claim.
H0. Defendent is guilty.
Ha. Defendent is NOT guilty.

P1. Defendant violated Law ABC.
P2. There is no Law ABC.
C. Defendent is NOT guilty.

The null hypothesis (H0) states a positive claim. If the prosecution fails to prove the claim, then the alternative hypothesis (Ha) is accepted. That the trinity statement above in red is not in the Bible is an affirmative defense.

Imagine for a moment that Jesus is NOT God. The NT writers would not write what Jesus is not. Instead they write what he is, the long awaited suffering servant OF God. You have no answer to why language should be abused to construe a servant of God is meant to refer to God himself. See Acts 3:13.

 

[Arial]

You got that right! Isaiah 45:5 is explicit. The name of God is YHWH (not Jesus) and there is no other God. Simple. So simple, even a trinitarian can understand it.

That is not explicitly saying that Jesus is not God. You must judge your own statements by the same standard as you judge those of trinitarians. What you did is nothing more than giving your interpretation of one isolated scripture, void of anything else in the Bible. Also known as proof texting one's way to doctrine. Yahweh translated is Lord. Jesus is often called Lord in the NT. And no one is saying that Jesus is another God. Inadvertently that is actually how unitarians treat Him and then deny that they do. But trinitarians proclaim with Scripture that there is only one God.

They bring reason and logic into play along with the Scripture. Jesus is called Lord, just as God is called Lord, He is called the Alpha and Omega, just as God is called the Alpha and Omega. Jesus is called the Word of God.

Nine different times in the NT Jesus is referred to as God.

John 1:1 He is identified with God himself.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father has made him known.
Thomas in John 20:28 "My Lord and my God!"
Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Romans 9:5 "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Titus 2:13 "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness---
2 Pet 1:1 To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
Heb 1:8 Your throne O God is forever and ever quoted from Ps 45:7-8
Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

In several places in the NT Jesus is said to be active in creation and there is only one Creator.

Knowing all of this then, the Trinitarian who knows there is only one God, seeks to see what it is instead of what it isn't. There can be no other conclusion that those who are shown in Scripture to be doing and being and being called, as though they were God, must mean they all are. And since there is only one God, it can only be that in His self existent and eternal and as completely other than us as created beings, must exist as triune, Father, Son, Holy Spirit as that is the manner in which they are spoken of by God.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Also, there is biblical evidence, you are just unable to see or accept it.

Again, this thread is about the trinity not the man-is-god thesis.

Many trinitarians seems to also ignore the fact that 2 is not 3. Any verse that one might read into that Jesus could be God is not a 2 for one special. It is not evidence for the trinity. While I recognize the passion for the trinity is the man-is-god thesis, let's keep it real.

Finally reading into verses can be done to also support non man-is-god thesis type suppositions just as well. Once you play the read into game, there is no barrier to read anything into the text, which is unitarian text by every author of the Bible.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

That is not explicitly saying that Jesus is not God.

LOL. Yes, it is explicit. YHWH is God and no one else, includes Jesus not being God.

You keep wanting to pretend each side of the argument has an equal burden. That is false.

 

[Arial]

You got to be kidding?! The burden is on the one making the postive claim.

Are you not making the positive claim that Jesus is not God? Am I not allowed to ask you the same question about your belief as you are about mine? And I have made the case for my claim. You have not. The fact that you don't accept my claim and only because you don't want to, is beside the point.

Mark 1:1 says "Jesus Christ, the Son of God." It is explicit and fully satisfies who Jesus is. Trinitarians rely on mystical dualism. They grant Jesus is the son of God but reject the mutual exclusion principle of logic to assert he is also his own Father.

When the Jews heard Jesus calling Himself the Son of God, they knew exactly what He was saying and tried to kill Him for it, and eventually used that as their argument to have Him put to death. It is Jews Jesus was dealing with. So you have to use what they meant and understood about Son of God, not your interpretation of it. Basic hermeneutics. They knew He was making Himself equal with God. So you only think that is explicitly stating that Jesus is not God. Just as you ask me to present the actual words, "Jesus is God." (which I have done in a previous post) stated everywhere and anywhere, you must do the same if I ask. And I have asked.

There is no dualism in Trinitarianism. And though the Trinity is a mystery, in that a finite mind has nothing of earth to compare the infinite, eternal, and self existent to, it is not mystical. And it does not assert that Jesus is His own Father. It asserts that God is the Father of the man Jesus. That alone makes Jesus God for He is of the same type as His Father. And also the same type as His mother. So that is two distinct but never mixed natures in one being right there. It is as unique (one of a kind) as God Himself is unique (none like Him.) You simply say that is impossible since you can't wrap your head around it.

There is a very important theological reason that Jesus cannot be God. By contrast, there is no importance to Jesus having to be God to do what he did because the Bible does not say it. The Bible repeatedly says Jesus is a man. That's good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

First of all, I do not deny that Jesus was a man. It was just as important that He be like us as it is that He be deity. So what is the theological reason that Jesus cannot be God? You ought to tell me what that is instead of just making the statement. Are you going to? The importance of Jesus being deity is central to what He was able to accomplish. But as I said earlier, that is a whole thread by itself in order to do it justice, and I will do that, but have not yet had the time. It will require a great deal of organization in order to be both comprehensive and restricted in length.

 

[Arial]

LOL.

YHWH is God and no one else, includes Jesus not being God.

You keep wanting to pretend each side of the argument has an equal burden. That is false.

I guess you forgot to read the rest of my post?

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Are you not making the positive claim that Jesus is not God?

Nope. See the not? That makes it a negative claim.

 

[Arial]

Again, this thread is about the trinity not the man-is-god thesis.

What do you think we have been talking about?

Finally reading into verses can be done to also support non man-is-god thesis type suppositions just as well. Once you play the read into game, there is no barrier to read anything into the text, which is unitarian text by every author of the Bible.

You are just reading presuppositions into it. If you would actually pay attention to what is being said in my posts and deal with them, we would not keep going over the same ground. I do not use any text as a proof text but in its relationship to the whole counsel of God. Everything He has to say on the same subject and I treat the Bible as a unit. If I give a single text as evidence, it is never contradicted somewhere else, and will mean the same thing in its context as it does singled out of it.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

I guess you forgot to read the rest of my post?

It may seem that way or be that way at times.

Either I only have time for a limited response or I’m still writing. As you get to know me, you’ll realize I tend to write short posts but have a high post count.

Responding to one thing at a time is easier.