The elephant named Trinity.~

[Runningman]

There I said it. The T word that so many are afraid of.

Bringing y'all up to date.

I had made a reply to @grace2 , in https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/why-are-so-few-saved.1902/page-6#post-81223

(This BTW is an interesting read if you have not.)

And grace2 made the comments
"Roman institutions are nothing but political.

And their trait is still living vividly.

they are so political."

Most trin churches are involved in political matters."

I was guided to respond to that with







I can only assume is their belief that If God states something we can just ignore it? The Father is political but we are not to be.....? I just really wonder how their God gets those people into position these days if people do not vote them in or out.

Twitching His nose? Or just pointing a finger to move more chess pieces in this game of humanity He created?

Yes, I know.. Rather facetious... but sometime is needed to make a point.

The point being that voting is the method God uses to put people in place in most areas today and therefore we automatically are involved in politics.

So enter now @Soldier of Christ1516 (Future reference will be SoC)

Who I quote.... BTW... everything is bolded now from here onand I cannot get it unbolded


"Concisely stated. Good to see others who can think through the inherently contradictory, idolatrous, 4th century manmade doctrine.

I tried to explain to @Rella the 3 most powerful arguments against it. Sadly, she said the debate was over when I presented the 2nd argument. LOL.

The OP question is above my pay grade. I’m content to know that few find the narrow road and rely on Roman’s 2 to question the implied premise of the question."
___________________________________________________


The debate was to prove why the Trinity is false based on the studies SoC has made.

The debate I closed because I asked a question that went unanswered
because my question was not following his debate rules.

This was my question and I still want any answer and I hope everyone who wants to will participate.

I asked this.

"Who was Jesus' Father?"

His answer was "Jesus Father is our Father, YHWH, the only true God."

This, of course is what we all believe....HOWEVER...............

Since there is no Trinity. according to SoC and There is no God the Holy Spirit according to SoC
that would mean that God YHWH used a surrogate and therefore that would make Jesus his adopted son.

And the one named in Matt 1:20 for that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Ghost.

and in Luke 1: 35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

But it was still the Holy spirit who SoC says is not God.

What is your question exactly?

I gather you are contesting who God is. You may refer to the teachings of Jesus where he said the Father is the only true God in John 17:3. Jesus said a great number of many other things in which we can understand who God is and who God is not. For starters, not sure what you believe exactly, but Jesus didn't teach anything about Trinitarianism (no one else did either) or make any claims to be God.

Yes, I am aware people make theological arguments about Jesus being God, but an argument isn't evidence or proof. In fact, to the contrary, when falsely accused of claiming to be God, rather than simply agreeing, Jesus said he is the Son of God in John 10:36. In other words, Jesus contradicted them which amounts to a denial of the accusation. Mark 10:18 is a more direct denial of Jesus being God.

Anyway, not sure what your point is exactly, but if you have any questions please feel free to let me know.

 

[Rella]

What is your question exactly?

I gather you are contesting who God is. You may refer to the teachings of Jesus where he said the Father is the only true God in John 17:3. Jesus said a great number of many other things in which we can understand who God is and who God is not. For starters, not sure what you believe exactly, but Jesus didn't teach anything about Trinitarianism (no one else did either) or make any claims to be God.

Yes, I am aware people make theological arguments about Jesus being God, but an argument isn't evidence or proof. In fact, to the contrary, when falsely accused of claiming to be God, rather than simply agreeing, Jesus said he is the Son of God in John 10:36. In other words, Jesus contradicted them which amounts to a denial of the accusation. Mark 10:18 is a more direct denial of Jesus being God.

Anyway, not sure what your point is exactly, but if you have any questions please feel free to let me know.

No question. This was started as a conversation with those who are not believers in the Trinity. It is the reason for the long explanation of what had transpired between one poster and myself away from this site.

One thing for certain is that a person either does believe in the Holy Trinity or they do not. There is no fence sitting on this.

If you have follow what has been said then you will know I will not comment on this thread or the other Trinity thread anymore.
The other being "Why are so few saved"

I said

It's a good idea to edit a new Comment before you Post it; or if you're like me, double edit it before Posting

My sarcasm frequently precedes me. I best just move away from this subject in both threads,

Catch you elsewhere.

And now y'all can consider it said here.

 

[grace2]

No question. This was started as a conversation with those who are not believers in the Trinity. It is the reason for the long explanation of what had transpired between one poster and myself away from this site.

One thing for certain is that a person either does believe in the Holy Trinity or they do not. There is no fence sitting on this.

If you have follow what has been said then you will know I will not comment on this thread or the other Trinity thread anymore.
The other being "Why are so few saved"

I said

My sarcasm frequently precedes me. I best just move away from this subject in both threads,

Catch you elsewhere.

And now y'all can consider it said here.

I blame all the false claims stemming from worshipping a triune god.

It is all about whom you worship Roman Empire god, triune god, or Jesus' God.

This is the beginning of salvation which one you choose to worship.

Jesus says this is the most important commandment.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Jesus didn't teach anything about Trinitarianism

This is a basic question I’ve asked with no one able to provide nothing close to a reasonable answer. Given that Jesus did NOT teach the trinity, why do followers of Jesus teach it?

They make it seem so difficult, so nebulous that one has to read between the lines. Let’s forget about Jesus’ God who set the standard in the human condition of an explicit expression of directness, putting his commands in stone!

The 1C being put no gods (including the trinitarian god) before ME, singular. And the 2C being don’t worship (4th century manmade doctrines OR any other) manmade IDOLS.

 

[Arial]

This is a basic question I’ve asked with no one able to provide nothing close to a reasonable answer. Given that Jesus did NOT teach the trinity, why do followers of Jesus teach it?

They make it seem so difficult, so nebulous that one has to read between the lines. Let’s forget about Jesus’ God who set the standard in the human condition of an explicit expression of directness, putting his commands in stone!

The 1C being put no gods (including the trinitarian god) before ME, singular. And the 2C being don’t worship (4th century manmade doctrines OR any other) manmade IDOLS.

No answer will seem reasonable if one asks for them with the rigidity of ingrained beliefs that are set to not hear, not listen, not accept. When they are given, then that person simply says they are unreasonable, when in fact they are not.

This not accepting of God as a triune being is based entirely on the wisdom of the world. And to those who do not approach the Word of God with faith, but with worldly wisdom, of course it is foolishness to them. The Bible also declares that to be the case. 1 Cor 2:12-14 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The antidote to such a condition of mind and heart, is to earnestly pray, with sincerity of heart, humbling one's self to the point of recognizing that they can be wrong, and desiring the truth from God above all else, to show them the real Jesus. If one does this with the idea of already knowing what He will show them, they have blocked any communication to the contrary. They are still leaning on their own understanding. One has to empty themselves before God in that regard.

 

[grace2]

This not accepting of God as a triune being is based entirely on the wisdom of the world.

The concept of trinity is the world's wisdom, not God's.

You got it all backward.

The origin of the triune god is the Roman Empire which is of the world.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

This not accepting of God as a triune being is based entirely on the wisdom of the world.

Well, that's were we totally disagree. Rejecting Jesus' God is entirely based on the wisdom of the world.

 

[Arial]

Well, that's were we totally disagree. Rejecting Jesus' God is entirely based on the wisdom of the world.

Except that I am not rejecting Jesus' God. You now sound like @grace2 .

Whether we disagree or not is beside the point. Have you ever considered that it is possible for you to be wrong? And do you want to know God's absolute truth, even if it comes at the cost of having to endure the breaking down and giving up of something you hold dear in your religion? Even if the cost is being humbled to sack cloth and ashes before the mighty hand of God?

Job accepted that and rejoiced!

 

[Arial]

The concept of trinity is the world's wisdom, not God's.

No. The Trinity is the reality of God. See post #45. Read it and set aside all arrogance and stubborness, and remember that we are all poor and needy, prone to standing on soap boxes of pride, unwilling to be mouldable and pliable in the hand of God, that we might grow in grace and truth.

The origin of the triune god is the Roman Empire which is of the world.

That is not the origin of the triune God. The origin is God Himself. He is who He is. He says He is the Redeemer, He brings Jesus His Son, gives His only Son as the perfect sacrifice to redeem a people and creation from sin and death. There is no man however holy who can do that. He makes it known by His word giving the same names to Jesus as He Himself has. He makes it known again in the very words of the Son, unless a man be born again of the Spirit, he cannot see God's kingdom and most certainly cannot inherit it.

The Trinity is taught in the Bible---not invented by the Roman empire. You should study these things before you just repeat them.

 

[grace2]

Read it and set aside all arrogance and stubborness, and remember that we are all poor and needy,

Arrogance is rejecting Jesus' simple word.

{edited by admin}

You repeat saying you Jesus' God is your God too. {edited by admin}. He never claims to be God.

Jesus is the Lord.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Except that I am not rejecting Jesus' God.

Sure you are! The implications of Jesus having a God are too damaging for a trinitarian to contemplate.

Does God have a God? Is there a single verse that suggests the Father, YHWH, has a God? No and no.

Scripture could not be more clear. There is one God, the Father, whose name is YHWH. He has many servants, one of which is named Jesus. Acts 3:13.

Language usage. We don't use language to state that a Being is a servant of themselves. The word "of" is not synonymous with "is." One is a preposition, while the other is a verb. Jesus is not God. We know this because he is OF God - son, priest, apostle, word, lamb, servant, etc.

Subjects of sentences are not objects of sentences. Acts 2:36. God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Jesus is acted upon as the object of the sentence. Who is doing the acting, the making? The one and only eternal God. You know Jesus is not eternal for a variety of reasons. The biggest is that he died and God cannot die. In addition, he was made by God, which all sons are. Being made both Lord and Christ by God means that there was a time this was not the case.

The mortal enemies of the concept of the trinity are these 4 pillars, which have to be violated at every turn:
1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

You now sound like @grace2 .

Hey, you don't have to get nasty! LOL

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Have you ever considered that it is possible for you to be wrong?

Have trinitarians considered they are wrong, given that Jesus did not teach the trinity?

That’s good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

 

[grace2]

Hey, you don't have to get nasty! LOL

You ought to be happy that you have some like-minded believers.

Not too many are true non-trins.

there are only a few of them.

Jesus says narrow is the way to life and only a few find it.

I just hope you are not a tongue speaker.

If you are, you are not one of the few.

there are many tongue-speaking non-trins.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

You ought to be happy that you have some like-minded believers.

I am.

I just hope you are not a tongue speaker.

No. I struggle with English as it is.

 

[Arial]

Have trinitarians considered they are wrong, given that Jesus did not teach the trinity?

That’s good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

I am only one trinitatian and yes, I have considered it. Every time, given who God is and who man (A CREATURE) is in relation to Him, and given what the Scriptures say about Jesus in both OT and NT, it is not possible for Him to have been a CREATURE and do what He did. Can you tell me what that is? Don't be lazy or cowardly (as you say those who don't answer questions are)and not answer the question.

Thinking that Jesus is not deity is a product of understanding very little of the Bible and having even a lesser amount of desire for understanding it. And certainly they have not ever addressed the Bible as one consistent revelation of God or as the story of redemption told with constant, consistent, interwoven, facets from the first page to the last.

The question:What did Jesus do? IOW what was the destination and what is the endgame?

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

it is not possible for Him to have been a CREATURE and do what He did. Can you tell me what that is?

Why would something a man does be impossible if it is ordained by God?

Don't be lazy or cowardly (as you say those who don't answer questions are)and not answer the question.

Pro-active Ad Homenim?! Bad form.

How about you not be lazy and actually come out with it rather than attempt to shame me into speculating?

For instance, a ripe tomato could take away the sins of the world if God so ordained it.

You are doubling down on speculation and building an entire theology outside of what Scripture says. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus is God, let alone he had to be God to do what he did.

 

[Arial]

Arrogance is rejecting Jesus' simple word.

Arrogance is standing in judgment of other people because they don't agree with you.

 

[Arial]

Pro-active Ad Homenim?! Bad form.

How about you not be lazy and actually come out with it rather than attempt to shame me into speculating?

Do you see the irony in those two sentences?

For instance, a ripe tomato could take away the sins of the world if God so ordained it.

He couldn't ordain it. Would you like me to explain why that is?

You are doubling down on speculation and building an entire theology outside of what Scripture says. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus is God, let alone he had to be God to do what he did.

See posts #4,5,14. There is a bit of what you say I am speculating on and building outside of Scripture. If you hadn't ignored it in the first place you might not have posted the above. I will get back to you later and show you where the Bible says Jesus is God in a number of places.

And you didn't answer the question. Are you going to? Post #55.

 

[grace2]

Arrogance is standing in judgment of other people because they don't agree with you.

I am using Jesus' wisdom.

Call me all kinds of names.

Jesus is the Judge.

Jesus says to judge justly.

{edited by admin}

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

He couldn't ordain it. Would you like me to explain why that is?

No. I’d like you to admit there is no Scripture that says Jesus has to be God to do what he did OR show the verse.