The Rapture

[Eleanor]

I just do not see you rightly dividing the word of truth and so it is not about me not believing the apostles words or Jesus's words at all.

Just because you spout the authority of the apostles teachings does not mean you are applying it right.

And one more time, until you Biblically demonstrate that assertion, it is simply your personal opinion, which is in disagreement with the NT apostolic teaching presented in post #788, for example.

 

[ChristB4us]

Oh, ok finally. Thanks for spelling it out. Do I agree with her? I haven't made up my mind if it can only occur at the GWT, though I tend to think that way, but I know very well that the Dispensational POV is replete with error. I grew up on it, and even as a kid had questions nobody answered me, that didn't make sense, concerning its relationship to the Gospel. Maybe 60 years later, now, they still don't make sense, and nobody has given me a satisfactory answer, but inevitably reverts to "...not rightly dividing" as if assertion is proof, or arrogant ad hom —"...only God can help you now."

Just explaining that it is not in my power to help her see the truth.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Same for anyone discussing scripture with me to my edification.

 

[ChristB4us]

Her line of reasoning, btw, includes her accepting the authority of the Apostle's teaching in Scripture, over YOUR acceptance of dispensationalism as necessary truth. But yeah, I figured you'd come up with arguments as to the end result, and not how you got there. I agree with her 100% on the authority of the Apostle's scriptural teaching, over anything humans can come up with. Particularly, Dispensationalism, when it directly contradicts the Gospel.

There is only one Gospel in the end, one need for salvation, one Savior, one chosen people.

And yet Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else.. as I see that "or else" as excommunicating unrepentant Christians from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven because they were found in iniquity. That is what a believer gets for not resisting sin by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

Luke 12:40-49 & Hebrews 12:1-10 note Luke 12:47-48 with Hebrews 12:6 for why those left behind are still saved but getting stripes/scourging.

 

[armylngst]

He did.

I think I forgot to add that at the end of that statement. (To show that Paul clearly was stating that they did remain. Oops. Thanks for spotting that.)

 

[Eleanor]

I think I forgot to add that at the end of that statement. (To show that Paul clearly was stating that they did remain. Oops. Thanks for spotting that.)

No one denies their existence.

 

[armylngst]

No one denies their existence.

No one should deny that Paul clearly states that the natural branches remain natural branches, and that one should remember that as natural branches, it is natural they should be a part of the tree, so the possibility of their being grafted in again is always there. (Not that they will be grafted back in, but Paul said that it is natural that they should be attached.)

 

[makesends]

I am not sure exactly what Dispensational POV is, but if you have questions about the pre-great tribulation rapture, feel free to ask & God be willing, I or someone else may provide the answer that the Lord will give to you & enable you to see. It has to be on Him to cause the increase.

I grew up on it. You aren't likely to enlighten me.

 

[Marilyn C]

And yet Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else.. as I see that "or else" as excommunicating unrepentant Christians from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven because they were found in iniquity. That is what a believer gets for not resisting sin by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

Luke 12:40-49 & Hebrews 12:1-10 note Luke 12:47-48 with Hebrews 12:6 for why those left behind are still saved but getting stripes/scourging.

There is no marriage in heaven. (Matt. 22: 29 & 30)

The `marriage` refers to the last requirement of the kinsman-redeemer when he had to marry the woman to also procure the land. The book of Ruth illustrates this. Jesus is the kinsman-redeemer to Israel. he connects, (marries) them again. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6, Hosea 2: 19 & 20) That is why Israel is called the `wife,` in Rev. 19: 7.

 

[Eleanor]

No one should deny that Paul clearly states that the natural branches remain natural branches, and that one should remember that as natural branches, it is natural they should be a part of the tree, so the possibility of their being grafted in again is always there. (Not that they will be grafted back in, but Paul said that it is natural that they should be attached.)

Previously addressed.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth.

OR 3.5 years into the "tribulation" when the REALLY ugly stuff starts happening.

SInce "Eschatology" is just a religious term for "Rank Speculation", one's as good as another. I remember in the '70s, enterprising folks were selling "revelation food" - dehydrated food in EITHER 3.5, or 7 year put-ups.

They suggested, (of course) that everybody buy the 7 year supply - in case their "Eschatology" was wrong. What they DIDN'T supply was the shotgun to deal with your starving Christian neighbors when they came after your food - Ah the good 'ol days.

I expect that those "Raptured" will simply drop dead in place, and their Spirits will be Heaven bound (what would God do with all those obsolete bodies anyway???). I can just imagine the political confusion, when governments try to rationalize the deaths of millions of people simultaneously all around the world!!!

BUT HEY!!! If I hear a "trumpet sound", I'm OUTTA HERE!!!

 

[Eleanor]

OR 3.5 years into the "tribulation" when the REALLY ugly stuff starts happening.
SInce "Eschatology" is just a religious term for "Rank Speculation", one's as good as another. I remember in the '70s, enterprising folks were selling "revelation food" - dehydrated food in EITHER 3.5, or 7 year put-ups.
They suggested, (of course) that everybody buy the 7 year supply - in case their "Eschatology" was wrong. What they DIDN'T supply was the shotgun to deal with your starving Christian neighbors when they came after your food - Ah the good 'ol days.
I expect that those "Raptured" will simply drop dead in place, and their Spirits will be Heaven bound (what would God do with all those obsolete bodies anyway???).

That "catching up" (harpazo, rapture) of the redeemed happens simultaneously with the resurrection, from the grave to the sky, which means the bodies will be glorified, sinless, perfect bodies, like the one Christ had at his resurrection.

I can just imagine the political confusion, when governments try to rationalize the deaths of millions of people simultaneously all around the world!!!

BUT HEY!!! If I hear a "trumpet sound", I'm OUTTA HERE!!!

 

[ChristB4us]

I grew up on it. You aren't likely to enlighten me.

Never said I could. Only Jesus can for either one of us.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is no marriage in heaven. (Matt. 22: 29 & 30)

The `marriage` refers to the last requirement of the kinsman-redeemer when he had to marry the woman to also procure the land. The book of Ruth illustrates this. Jesus is the kinsman-redeemer to Israel. he connects, (marries) them again. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6, Hosea 2: 19 & 20) That is why Israel is called the `wife,` in Rev. 19: 7.

Between Christ and the Church there is.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

But not every one will be ready.

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV The ten virgins ARE the kingdom of Heaven thus saved and born again of the Spirit but because the foolish are out to the market getting filled with oil as if they need to do that continuously or even one more time, they were not ready as found in iniquity that denies Him for why He did not know them & they get left behind. BUT they are still His even though they missed out on the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Luke 12:40-49 KJV Jesus warning believers to be ready as found abiding in Him and not in iniquity or else be left behind on earth with the unbelievers when that fire comes on the earth ( note verse 49 ) after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Luke 13:24-30 KJV Jesus judging the church for being workers of iniquity for why they were left behind and hinted the sit down at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven with O.T. saints.

Luke 14:15-24 Is Jesus talking about that Marriage Supper aka King's Supper that is held in Heaven in response to what that person said in verse 15 as saved believers will be tempted not to come because of the everyday cares of life which makes the rapture before the great tribulation rather than at the end of the great tribulation.

Luke 17:26-37 KJV Jesus is warning believers again to be ready to leave all their treasures behind and not go back to get anything as if they can bring it with them to Heaven per verses 31-33 or else they will be left behind. That is why believers are to set their hearts on the treasures above and not of the earth.

Luke 21:33-36 All of these references is necessary to depict that the Marriage Supper is held in Heaven and the urgency in leaning on Him to be ready as found abiding in Him and His words as His disciples & His help to escape any snares like the cars of this life so as to be willing to go.

 

[ChristB4us]

And one more time, until you Biblically demonstrate that assertion, it is simply your personal opinion, which is in disagreement with the NT apostolic teaching presented in post #788, for example.

Do you believe that Jesus will descend with a shout from Heaven in rapture His saints into the air as stated clearly & plainly in verses 16-17?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you believe that there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as stated after Satan is in the pit for a thousand years?

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Do you believe that after that thousand year reign, Satan will be loose from the pit to stage a last rebellion for a small season before being defeated for the last time & cast into the lake of fire from when the Great White Throne Judgment shall commence?

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now if you believe all of these things, then how can Jesus be meeting the saints in the air, let alone descending from Heaven with a shout if He is already on earth as the King of kings at the Great White Throne Judgment and has been since His thousand year reign on earth began?

 

[Eleanor]

Do you believe that Jesus will descend with a shout from Heaven in rapture His saints into the air as stated clearly & plainly in verses 16-17?

I believe exactly what 1 Th 4:16-17 states.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

The issue here as seen from the text is that, since Jesus said he would return soon, the first Christians thought Jesus would be returning in their lifetime, and when some of the brethren died before Jesus returned, they grieved because their deceased brothers would miss the rapture at the second coming.
Paul is writing to tell them not to grieve, for those brothers will not miss the second coming and rapture.
For Jesus will come, the dead will be raised, and the brethren that are still living will be caught up together in the clouds with the brethren from their graves to meet the Lord in the air.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them[/B] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you believe that there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as stated after Satan is in the pit for a thousand years?

No such thing is stated in authoritative apostolic teaching.
Is that from a prophetic riddle not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8)?

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Do you believe that after that thousand year reign, Satan will be loose from the pit to stage a last rebellion for a small season before being defeated for the last time & cast into the lake of fire from when the Great White Throne Judgment shall commence?

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now if you believe all of these things, then how can Jesus be meeting the saints in the air, let alone descending from Heaven with a shout if He is already on earth as the King of kings at the Great White Throne Judgment and has been since His thousand year reign on earth began?

Precisely.

Those are prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, whereas I take my doctrine only from authoritative NT apostolic teaching, with which all understanding of Scripture must agree, for the apostles had 40 days for Jesus to teach them the meaning of everything (Lk 24:44-45), not to mention Paul likewise receiving his revelation from Jesus Christ personally (Gal 1:11-12).

The Dispensationalism of today is new to the church in the last 200 years. It does not come from the apostles, and it contradicts much of what the apostles present.

 

[Marilyn C]

Between Christ and the Church there is.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

But not every one will be ready.

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV The ten virgins ARE the kingdom of Heaven thus saved and born again of the Spirit but because the foolish are out to the market getting filled with oil as if they need to do that continuously or even one more time, they were not ready as found in iniquity that denies Him for why He did not know them & they get left behind. BUT they are still His even though they missed out on the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Luke 12:40-49 KJV Jesus warning believers to be ready as found abiding in Him and not in iniquity or else be left behind on earth with the unbelievers when that fire comes on the earth ( note verse 49 ) after the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Luke 13:24-30 KJV Jesus judging the church for being workers of iniquity for why they were left behind and hinted the sit down at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven with O.T. saints.

Luke 14:15-24 Is Jesus talking about that Marriage Supper aka King's Supper that is held in Heaven in response to what that person said in verse 15 as saved believers will be tempted not to come because of the everyday cares of life which makes the rapture before the great tribulation rather than at the end of the great tribulation.

Luke 17:26-37 KJV Jesus is warning believers again to be ready to leave all their treasures behind and not go back to get anything as if they can bring it with them to Heaven per verses 31-33 or else they will be left behind. That is why believers are to set their hearts on the treasures above and not of the earth.

Luke 21:33-36 All of these references is necessary to depict that the Marriage Supper is held in Heaven and the urgency in leaning on Him to be ready as found abiding in Him and His words as His disciples & His help to escape any snares like the cars of this life so as to be willing to go.

Eph. 5 is an exhortation NOT a doctrine. It is for husbands to love their wives.

The other scriptures in the gospels are for Israel. They have the symbol of the `bride.` (Isa 54: 5 & 6, Hosea 2: 15 & 16) The `marriage,` is the 4th requirement for Israel`s kinsman-redeemer to fulfill. The book of Ruth is the illustration.

 

[armylngst]

Previously addressed.

No it wasn't, or I wouldn't be repeating it.

 

[ChristB4us]

I believe exactly what 1 Th 4:16-17 states.

The issue here as seen from the text is that, since Jesus said he would return soon, the first Christians thought Jesus would be returning in their lifetime, and when some of the brethren died before Jesus returned, they grieved because their deceased brothers would miss the rapture at the second coming.
Paul is writing to tell them not to grieve, for those brothers will not miss the second coming and rapture.
For Jesus will come, the dead will be raised, and the brethren that are still living will be caught up together in the clouds with the brethren from their graves to meet the Lord in the air.

No such thing is stated in authoritative apostolic teaching.
Is that from a prophetic riddle not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8)?

Precisely.

Those are prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, whereas I take my doctrine only from authoritative NT apostolic teaching, with which all understanding of Scripture must agree, for the apostles had 40 days for Jesus to teach them the meaning of everything (Lk 24:44-45), not to mention Paul likewise receiving his revelation from Jesus Christ personally (Gal 1:11-12).

The Dispensationalism of today is new to the church in the last 200 years. It does not come from the apostles, and it contradicts much of what the apostles present.

You are only proving that you are ignoring scripture by citing it as prophetic riddles and therefore not rightly dividing the word of truth.

The only way you can align your belief as being rightly divided is to apply what those scriptures are talking about that you are grossly ignoring.

 

[ChristB4us]

Eph. 5 is an exhortation NOT a doctrine. It is for husbands to love their wives.

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
I disagree.

The other scriptures in the gospels are for Israel. They have the symbol of the `bride.` (Isa 54: 5 & 6, Hosea 2: 15 & 16) The `marriage,` is the 4th requirement for Israel`s kinsman-redeemer to fulfill. The book of Ruth is the illustration.

Cannot be for Israel when this involves judging His church, the body of believers, for committing adultery against Him.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Above is about spiritual fornication/ adultery but below is about physical fornication.

1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So you better rethink that about that only applying to Israel; this is to all saved believers in Jesus Christ for why He is the Bridegroom as John the Baptist testifies of.

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

 

[makesends]

No it wasn't, or I wouldn't be repeating it.

I 'love' this kind of response from people. Why in the world do they think the fact they are repeating it, is evidence that it wasn't addressed?

Reminds me of someone trying to get information from me, where, after a series of questions, they ask me, "Are you telling me the truth?" Really?