Preterism is true....no bones about it. Right?

[Red Baker]

The responses to using historical evidences (such as Josephus) are mixed. Some disdain all historical evidences as being totally corrupted and useless. Almost a sin to use for consultation. Others demand those historical evidences, rather like "doubting Thomas". It's impossible to please everybody, but I do try to meet each one on the ground they are standing upon.

I can testify that this is so with you~even though we strongly disagree with you.

Btw, Greg Duren ask me to tell you to come to downtown Greer, where the church he's attending is going through the book of Revelation, you and Greg would be very close. I love Greg, just do not agree with him on his eschatology, which he truly learned from JRC along with you, if you remember what he taught.

LOL we woke up this morning with a puddle of hairball on the quilt at our feet. Yesterday it was feces down the hall that I accidentally stepped in and tracked into the bedroom. Cats with their issues are an acquired taste, for certain. But the hard-won purr of a cat is something that cannot be bought.

I'll pass.....I'm not going to live with these temperamental animals in my home. When I lived out in the country we had a "community of cats" (25 plus) all wild that found a home on our property, (eleven acres) which I feed (a little each day, not that much) to keep field rats, and mouse away. When I sold the property two years ago to down size, we left a few of them and the new owner wanted me to get rid of them, I told him, they come with the property, you do with them as you desire. I have no ideal what he did.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, Revelation was also written before AD 70. By Revelation's own internal witnesses of several datable events, it was written sometime between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just before the AD 60 catastrophic earthquake at Laodicea.

Revelations was written...in the 90"s.

Date of Writing: The Book of Revelation was likely written between A.D. 90 and 95. ref

The problem comes with the common, inflated expectations of what those seals, trumpets, and vials would involve. For example, when Rev. 9:15 says that "a third of men" were to be slain by the horsemen, most people assume that this is one third of the entire planet's population. But if you look closer at the events of this sixth trumpet judgment, those deaths would take place within the city of Jerusalem alone. One third of men in that sixth trumpet judgment amounted to only 7,000 names of men who were slain (plus the murder of the two witnesses left unburied in the streets of Jerusalem).

I looked closer...and didn't see your point.
In fact the verse says....

15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.

It says mankind...NOT the population of Jerusalem.

Just for the record...we also know the verse is future because it wasn't to about 600 AD that the population of the world hit 200,000,000

Any interpretation of Revelation should NOT begin with the statement, "I don't believe these things could have all been fulfilled back then, so they weren't." It begins first with checking John's time statements in Revelation 1:1 &3, 1:19, and 22:6 & 7 & 10 & 12 & 20 of when he said those events would be fulfilled.

I've explained why numerous times. Would you like to go over them again? We'll start with the events presented in Rev 8 and discuss when they happened.

Of course, that is a given. But it's not just a single verse we have about the many saints bodily raised in Matthew 27:52-53. Ephesians 4:8-12 speaks of them also. The already-ascended Christ led that "multitude of captives" out of their graves and gave them as gifts to men.

Sounds like Jesus led those souls from paradise (bosom of Abraham) up into heaven shortly after His death on the cross. There was no resurrection.

There are other interpretations.

This was what an anointed high priest back in the OT did, as in Hebrews 8:3. "For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices; wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer." Christ as the newly-anointed Great High Priest in heaven that resurrection day raised those Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of their graves and gave those resurrected individuals as "gifts" to the early church. These bodily-resurrected saints served as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, to perfect the saints for the work of the ministry, and to edify the body of Christ. That means they could not have been resurrected until "AFTER" Christ's resurrection, just as their resurrection is portrayed in Revelation 14:14-16 in the first sickle "harvest" by the Son of Man in heaven.

And these are certainly not the only scripture verses that refer to the Matthew 27:52-53 saints and the work they performed in the early church before Christ's second coming return in AD 70. There are other texts that speak about them.

Once again...the bible doesn't speak of Christ return in 70 AD.

According to this list there were several books written after 70 AD...certainly they would have spoken of Christ return.

If you can't agree with this, then in effect you are stating that your own bodily resurrection when it occurs in the future will not be an assured thing either. All through eternity, you will be fearfully wondering if your resurrected, glorified status will be revoked. Scripture says that it won't be. Just as any resurrected person in scripture from the OT days to the NT would never be able to die again either.

Really? Are you actually suggesting you've presented enough information that has created doubt in my mind against a future resurrection/rapture event?

 

[3 Resurrections]

I can testify that this is so with you~even though we strongly disagree with you.

Btw, Greg Duren ask me to tell you to come to downtown Greer, where the church he's attending is going through the book of Revelation, you and Greg would be very close. I love Greg, just do not agree with him on his eschatology, which he truly learned from JRC along with you, if you remember what he taught.

Thank you for the tribute, Red. I don't always succeed at this, but I do try. You would have to inform me as to which church in downtown Greer that this is. I don't have Greg's number, or I would ask. Perhaps you can drop the church's name to me in a PM if you have time.

But I would strongly contest that I learned anything related to Preterism from JRC. You still have me confused with someone else. I never had a single conversation with anyone in that church concerning eschatology views, nor did I have any particular stance on the subject at the time, other than some shreds of pre-mil-disp. left over from my Christian schooling and upbringing. I had other things on my mind, and was enveloped in a state of misery that most of the time drove out thoughts of personal scripture study during those years at that "cult" church. I remember a period of two years of despair when I never cracked open the Bible once for independent study.

The last time I checked JRC's website a few weeks back, they still post articles with strong loathing against anything Preterist related. Lots of name-calling and pejoratives against it. So I fail to see why you continue to connect me with adopting any Preterist views from that person who shall remain nameless.

I'll pass.....I'm not going to live with these temperamental animals in my home.

They certainly are temperamental...and more. That is why cats are excellent training for dealing with people of varying temperaments. All five cats demonstrate their affection for me in their various ways of expressing it. They are therapeutic for me.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Revelations was written...in the 90"s.

Not according to Revelation's own internal witness of datable events. The 90's is a quite impossible date of composition when one consider this internal evidence.

I looked closer...and didn't see your point.
In fact the verse says....

15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.

It says mankind...NOT the population of Jerusalem.

Just for the record...we also know the verse is future because it wasn't to about 600 AD that the population of the world hit 200,000,000

That "third of mankind" or "third part of men" (depending on your translation) does not mean that this "third" had to be living across the entire planet at the time of their death. The sixth trumpet judgment limits the death of these men to the Old Jerusalem location only.

And the 200 million number is a gross error of calculation for the translation of this Greek term of "two myriads of myriads". The entire total of these mounted horsemen only amounted to twenty thousand, since a single "myriad" amounts to 10,000 literally. Two of those groups of 10,000 would be twenty thousand only.

It was an Idumean army of 20,000 led by four commanders which came to attack Jerusalem in either late AD 67 or early AD 68. This sixth trumpet judgment was fulfilled back then in its entirety - earthquake, two murdered witnesses, and all.

Sounds like Jesus led those souls from paradise (bosom of Abraham) up into heaven shortly after His death on the cross. There was no resurrection.

I agree that the spirits of the righteous dead in Paradise (bosom of Abraham) were finally admitted to heaven, but that only became possible AFTER Christ's ascension to heaven, the morning after His resurrection. This is why Paul could say "absent from the body...present with the Lord" concerning the departed spirits of the righteous. This is also why John's angel could say "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth..." This point in time access to heaven "from henceforth" was set up AFTER God had anointed Christ as our High Priest, opening up the way for the spirits of the righteous to be admitted to the Father's presence in heaven from then onward.

But we are told that it was not possible for bodily-resurrected persons to have entered heaven shortly after Christ's death on the cross. We are told when bodily-resurrected individuals (other than Christ) were first allowed entrance into heaven's temple, and that was after the 7 vial judgments were finished in Revelation 15:8.

Christ by Himself harvested with a "sickle" the bodies of those Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of the ground from His position of sitting on a cloud in heaven (Rev. 14:14-16). They "remained" on earth in those glorified bodies for several decades to serve in the early church; acting in those roles mentioned in Ephesians 4:8-12 of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

That most definitely was a bodily-resurrection event in Matthew 27:52-53. It was called "The FIRST resurrection" in Revelation 20:5 when that "remnant of the dead" came to life again. That "remnant of the dead" was composed of 144,000 of those "First-fruits" (Rev. 14:4), redeemed from out of the earth that morning by "Christ the First-fruits" (1 Cor. 15:20 & 23).

Once again...the bible doesn't speak of Christ return in 70 AD.

Christ did say exactly this in Matthew 16:27-28. And the rest of the scriptures, both OT and NT, also present the same evidence pointing to an AD 70 bodily return. The scripture message is universal across the board. The only wonder is that it took me so long to realize this obvious universal message.

Really? Are you actually suggesting you've presented enough information that has created doubt in my mind against a future resurrection/rapture event?

That isn't my point. There most definitely IS going to be a future THIRD resurrection event - just not another "rapture" as you understand it. When Christ returns in the future, He will not immediately return to heaven again, as was the case in the already-fulfilled AD 70 "rapture" of the resurrected saints back to heaven. I believe He and all the saints resurrected at that future return will remain on this planet.

God did not create this planet earth in vain. "He formed it to be inhabited". (Isaiah 45:18). One day in the future, He will have purified this planet entirely of the presence of human evil, leaving nothing but resurrected, righteous saints to inhabit this world. Therefore, there would be no need to "rapture" them off the planet, since the presence of all wicked humanity will have been eradicated by then.

God has already purged this planet of all Satanic evil creatures back in AD 70. This has left just wicked mankind that eventually needs to be purged from existence in the final judgment.

 

[CrowCross]

Not according to Revelation's own internal witness of datable events. The 90's is a quite impossible date of composition when one consider this internal evidence.

If you say so. My bibles..multiple bibles in the beginning of the book of Revelation state the dat I mentioned. What does your bible say? Rev was written in the 90"s.

That "third of mankind" or "third part of men" (depending on your translation) does not mean that this "third" had to be living across the entire planet at the time of their death. The sixth trumpet judgment limits the death of these men to the Old Jerusalem location only.

Then why not say Jerusalem?
Rev 3:10 even speaks of more than Jerusalem...here is the biblical quote:
10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth

And the 200 million number is a gross error of calculation for the translation of this Greek term of "two myriads of myriads". The entire total of these mounted horsemen only amounted to twenty thousand, since a single "myriad" amounts to 10,000 literally. Two of those groups of 10,000 would be twenty thousand only.

Actually a better reply would have been that they represent some sort of evil supernatural being.
You're trying to hard to make scripture fit your broken theology.

It was an Idumean army of 20,000 led by four commanders which came to attack Jerusalem in either late AD 67 or early AD 68. This sixth trumpet judgment was fulfilled back then in its entirety - earthquake, two murdered witnesses, and all.

So, if I present a list of all of the trumpet judgements...you'll be able to tell me how they were all fulfilled in 70 AD?

Are you up for that challenge? I am.

I agree that the spirits of the righteous dead in Paradise (bosom of Abraham) were finally admitted to heaven, but that only became possible AFTER Christ's ascension to heaven, the morning after His resurrection. This is why Paul could say "absent from the body...present with the Lord" concerning the departed spirits of the righteous. This is also why John's angel could say "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth..." This point in time access to heaven "from henceforth" was set up AFTER God had anointed Christ as our High Priest, opening up the way for the spirits of the righteous to be admitted to the Father's presence in heaven from then onward.

You still haven't shown the people who were resurrected when Jesus died then came out of the grave when Jesus resurrected didn't die later on.

But we are told that it was not possible for bodily-resurrected persons to have entered heaven shortly after Christ's death on the cross. We are told when bodily-resurrected individuals (other than Christ) were first allowed entrance into heaven's temple, and that was after the 7 vial judgments were finished in Revelation 15:8.

Christ by Himself harvested with a "sickle" the bodies of those Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of the ground from His position of sitting on a cloud in heaven (Rev. 14:14-16). They "remained" on earth in those glorified bodies for several decades to serve in the early church; acting in those roles mentioned in Ephesians 4:8-12 of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

You seem to be adding to your story...you said "They "remained" on earth in those glorified bodies for several decades"....do you have a biblical reference? Perhaps you do. I've never heard of one.

That most definitely was a bodily-resurrection event in Matthew 27:52-53. It was called "The FIRST resurrection" in Revelation 20:5 when that "remnant of the dead" came to life again. That "remnant of the dead" was composed of 144,000 of those "First-fruits" (Rev. 14:4), redeemed from out of the earth that morning by "Christ the First-fruits" (1 Cor. 15:20 & 23).

Once again do you have a biblical reference that tell us these were the 144,000?

Christ did say exactly this in Matthew 16:27-28. And the rest of the scriptures, both OT and NT, also present the same evidence pointing to an AD 70 bodily return. The scripture message is universal across the board. The only wonder is that it took me so long to realize this obvious universal message.

Why do the books written after 70 AD not mention this?

That isn't my point. There most definitely IS going to be a future THIRD resurrection event - just not another "rapture" as you understand it. When Christ returns in the future, He will not immediately return to heaven again, as was the case in the already-fulfilled AD 70 "rapture" of the resurrected saints back to heaven. I believe He and all the saints resurrected at that future return will remain on this planet.

Once again there is nothing in the bible that suggest this......tell me, what "denomination" believes this? I know of none except for you.

God did not create this planet earth in vain. "He formed it to be inhabited". (Isaiah 45:18). One day in the future, He will have purified this planet entirely of the presence of human evil, leaving nothing but resurrected, righteous saints to inhabit this world. Therefore, there would be no need to "rapture" them off the planet, since the presence of all wicked humanity will have been eradicated by then.

The bible mentions a rapture in 1 Thes 4:16ish....I'm missing your point.

God has already purged this planet of all Satanic evil creatures back in AD 70. This has left just wicked mankind that eventually needs to be purged from existence in the final judgment.

Oh, really?

 

[Red Baker]

Thank you for the tribute, Red. I don't always succeed at this, but I do try. You would have to inform me as to which church in downtown Greer that this is. I don't have Greg's number, or I would ask.

Greg Duren: 1-864-990-6833

Randle House Church, on Randle Road in Greer, S.C.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If you say so. My bibles..multiple bibles in the beginning of the book of Revelation state the dat I mentioned. What does your bible say? Rev was written in the 90"s.

My KJV Bible (in the back section giving a brief description of each book) reads concerning Revelation, "There is a considerable difference of opinion as to the date of its composition. One tradition states it to have been written at the end of the reign of Domitian, about AD 96, while another connects it with the persecution of Nero, AD 64-8. The earlier date is the more probable....the interpretation of the Rev. is easier if it belongs to the period just preceding the downfall of Jerusalem, and refers to events which lay in the immediate future."

But this quote is not the grounds for which composition year Revelation was written. INTERNAL evidence of Revelation itself trumps every other opinion or proposed tradition as to its date. And all those datable events and time-relevant language point to a date no earlier than late AD 59, and no later than early AD 60. A very narrow window of time.

Then why not say Jerusalem?
Rev 3:10 even speaks of more than Jerusalem...here is the biblical quote:
10Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth

The sixth trumpet judgment DID say that it took place in Jerusalem - namely, "where our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8). The sixth trumpet judgment finishes up in Revelation 11:14.

But you are right that the judgments encompassed in this Great Tribulation period fell on more than just the Jerusalem location. Jerusalem got the brunt of those disasters, but it was not that city alone that suffered. That is because those "Days of Vengeance" were going to shatter the power of the holy people (Dan. 12:7) - and Jews with their synagogues were scattered all over the known world at that time, as testified by Herod Agrippa to the Jews in Jerusalem in Wars 2.16.398. "Nay, indeed the danger concerns not those Jews that dwell here only, but those of them who dwell in other cities also; for there is no people upon the habitable earth which have not some portion of you among them, whom your enemies will slay, in case you go to war, and on that account also; and so every city which hath Jews in it will be filled with slaughter for the sake only of a few men, and they who slay them will be pardoned;" This came to pass, showing that Herod Agrippa had more sense of what was coming than the deceived Zealots did in AD 66.

You seem to be adding to your story...you said "They "remained" on earth in those glorified bodies for several decades"....do you have a biblical reference? Perhaps you do. I've never heard of one.

These Matthew 27:52-53 First-fruits resurrected saints were among the number Paul was speaking about in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 who were "alive" and who had "remained" until Christ's return. This description of the "alive" and "remaining" ones that would be "raptured" in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 was not speaking of those saints who had not died yet. It was speaking of those saints who had already been made alive by the resurrection process (like Dorcas who was presented "alive" to her companions).

Paul also wrote concerning the church in Romans 8:23 that "we HAVE the First-fruits" of the Spirit's work among them at that time. These resurrected First-fruits were also waiting patiently for the other saints to likewise receive their "redemption of the body", when all together they would be "raptured" to heaven with Christ.

The bible mentions a rapture in 1 Thes 4:16ish....I'm missing your point.

Certainly it does. This 1 Thess. 4:16 "rapture" of the resurrected saints was going to take place as the resurrection and judgment Paul spoke to Felix about - the resurrection that was "about to be" in that first-century generation (Acts 24:15 & 25).

You still haven't shown the people who were resurrected when Jesus died then came out of the grave when Jesus resurrected didn't die later on.

None of these Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints would ever die again (not even possible according to Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:36). These all waited on earth in those glorified, incorruptible forms until that AD 70 "rapture" of the resurrected saints back to heaven with the returning Christ.

Once again do you have a biblical reference that tell us these were the 144,000?

The 144,000 "redeemed from the earth" (Rev. 14:3 - resurrected bodily out of the grave) were specifically titled "the FIRST-fruits unto God and the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4). In Revelation 14:1, the 144,000 stood together with the risen Lamb on Mount Zion (the temple location in Old Jerusalem). The scriptures tell us that Christ Jesus was in Jerusalem on that first day of His resurrection, and we are told that the Matthew 27:52-53 saints all went into the city of Jerusalem that same day.

This joint appearance of "Christ the First-fruits" and the other 144,000 First-fruits redeemed from the earth was symbolized long ago back in the OT. This symbol was the Passover ritual of the sheaf handful of First-fruits barley, waved as an offering in the temple - along with a single he-lamb without blemish (Leviticus 23:10-12). That OT offering of a handful of First-fruits barley grain and the single he-lamb was meant to foreshadow the "harvesting" of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of the ground, and on the same day that Christ was raised from the dead. No unrighteous ones were included in that "FIRST resurrection" event - only "blessed and holy" ones who participated in it (Rev. 20:6).

Actually a better reply would have been that they represent some sort of evil supernatural being.
You're trying to hard to make scripture fit your broken theology.

The 20,000 Idumean horsemen ("two myriads of myriads") and their four generals were serving a God-ordained purpose in their attack on Jerusalem in AD 67 / 68. God had prepared them for a very specific hour, day, month, and year to accomplish His intentions. Their 20,000-numbered battle strength was meant to mimic the chariots of God, which number twenty thousand in Psalms 68:17.

Those 20,000 Idumean horsemen may have had evil intentions, but the wrath of men was only serving to fulfill God's purposes for that moment in time. That purpose was to eradicate the high priesthood and its moderate followers, (one of three factions - one third of men - struggling for supremacy in Jerusalem) who had been holding back the full fury of the Zealot rebellion against Rome. Those two former high priest leaders in Jerusalem (Ananas ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel) were murdered and left unburied in the streets, with their Zealot enemies rejoicing at their deaths - just as the sixth trumpet judgment predicted for them.

Why do the books written after 70 AD not mention this?

Your presumption that any books of scripture were written after AD 70 is just that - a presumption. Internal evidences for the rest of the NT writings (as well as Revelation) also prove they were penned before AD 70. This is why there is no mention of Christ's AD 70 coming return - or the destruction of Jerusalem - as having already occurred.

Once again there is nothing in the bible that suggest this

I would not be posting about a THIRD coming and THIRD resurrection event if I did not see it being taught in scripture.

Oh, really?

Don't you remember the various texts that describe God crushing Satan's head, slaying the Dragon that is in the Sea, and burning up the anointed cherubim to ashes so that "never shalt thou exist anymore"? God was going to destroy Satan utterly as well as every one of the evil hosts of angelic beings. The unclean spirits are now gone from this world, as well as Satan and his devils. Probably the only difference between you and me is the timing of this destruction of Satan and his hordes of evil angels.

Once again there is nothing in the bible that suggest this......tell me, what "denomination" believes this? I know of none except for you.

"There is nothing new under the sun." Whether you have encountered anyone that presents these things before or not. I am not that original.

 

[Red Baker]

But I would strongly contest that I learned anything related to Preterism from JRC. You still have me confused with someone else.

Well, it is true, that JRC is not a full Preterist, or even to the degree you are, yet he was of the Historic view concerning eschatology, he relied strongly on Josephus to support his teaching on Daniel, and much of the Matthew 24, Mark 13; and Luke 21, he never has taught on Revelation, yet has mentioned several parts of it, to give others an understanding of what he would say if he did.

I never had a single conversation with anyone in that church concerning eschatology views

Well, the reason why was he was a lord over those there and no one was allow to discuss scriptures, unless you talk about what their lord taught them, aka....JRC. I do not think much has changed in the past twenty some years~they are not allow to talk to me.

 

[CrowCross]

My KJV Bible (in the back section giving a brief description of each book) reads concerning Revelation, "There is a considerable difference of opinion as to the date of its composition. One tradition states it to have been written at the end of the reign of Domitian, about AD 96, while another connects it with the persecution of Nero, AD 64-8. The earlier date is the more probable....the interpretation of the Rev. is easier if it belongs to the period just preceding the downfall of Jerusalem, and refers to events which lay in the immediate future."

But this quote is not the grounds for which composition year Revelation was written. INTERNAL evidence of Revelation itself trumps every other opinion or proposed tradition as to its date. And all those datable events and time-relevant language point to a date no earlier than late AD 59, and no later than early AD 60. A very narrow window of time.


The sixth trumpet judgment DID say that it took place in Jerusalem - namely, "where our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8). The sixth trumpet judgment finishes up in Revelation 11:14.

But you are right that the judgments encompassed in this Great Tribulation period fell on more than just the Jerusalem location. Jerusalem got the brunt of those disasters, but it was not that city alone that suffered. That is because those "Days of Vengeance" were going to shatter the power of the holy people (Dan. 12:7) - and Jews with their synagogues were scattered all over the known world at that time, as testified by Herod Agrippa to the Jews in Jerusalem in Wars 2.16.398. "Nay, indeed the danger concerns not those Jews that dwell here only, but those of them who dwell in other cities also; for there is no people upon the habitable earth which have not some portion of you among them, whom your enemies will slay, in case you go to war, and on that account also; and so every city which hath Jews in it will be filled with slaughter for the sake only of a few men, and they who slay them will be pardoned;" This came to pass, showing that Herod Agrippa had more sense of what was coming than the deceived Zealots did in AD 66.


These Matthew 27:52-53 First-fruits resurrected saints were among the number Paul was speaking about in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 who were "alive" and who had "remained" until Christ's return. This description of the "alive" and "remaining" ones that would be "raptured" in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 was not speaking of those saints who had not died yet. It was speaking of those saints who had already been made alive by the resurrection process (like Dorcas who was presented "alive" to her companions).

Paul also wrote concerning the church in Romans 8:23 that "we HAVE the First-fruits" of the Spirit's work among them at that time. These resurrected First-fruits were also waiting patiently for the other saints to likewise receive their "redemption of the body", when all together they would be "raptured" to heaven with Christ.


Certainly it does. This 1 Thess. 4:16 "rapture" of the resurrected saints was going to take place as the resurrection and judgment Paul spoke to Felix about - the resurrection that was "about to be" in that first-century generation (Acts 24:15 & 25).


None of these Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints would ever die again (not even possible according to Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 20:36). These all waited on earth in those glorified, incorruptible forms until that AD 70 "rapture" of the resurrected saints back to heaven with the returning Christ.


The 144,000 "redeemed from the earth" (Rev. 14:3 - resurrected bodily out of the grave) were specifically titled "the FIRST-fruits unto God and the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4). In Revelation 14:1, the 144,000 stood together with the risen Lamb on Mount Zion (the temple location in Old Jerusalem). The scriptures tell us that Christ Jesus was in Jerusalem on that first day of His resurrection, and we are told that the Matthew 27:52-53 saints all went into the city of Jerusalem that same day.

This joint appearance of "Christ the First-fruits" and the other 144,000 First-fruits redeemed from the earth was symbolized long ago back in the OT. This symbol was the Passover ritual of the sheaf handful of First-fruits barley, waved as an offering in the temple - along with a single he-lamb without blemish (Leviticus 23:10-12). That OT offering of a handful of First-fruits barley grain and the single he-lamb was meant to foreshadow the "harvesting" of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of the ground, and on the same day that Christ was raised from the dead. No unrighteous ones were included in that "FIRST resurrection" event - only "blessed and holy" ones who participated in it (Rev. 20:6).


The 20,000 Idumean horsemen ("two myriads of myriads") and their four generals were serving a God-ordained purpose in their attack on Jerusalem in AD 67 / 68. God had prepared them for a very specific hour, day, month, and year to accomplish His intentions. Their 20,000-numbered battle strength was meant to portray the chariots of God, which number twenty thousand in Psalms 68:17.

Those 20,000 Idumean horsemen may have had evil intentions, but the wrath of men was only serving to fulfill God's purposes for that moment in time. That purpose was to eradicate the high priesthood and its moderate followers, (one of three factions - one third of men - struggling for supremacy in Jerusalem) who had been holding back the full fury of the Zealot rebellion against Rome. Those two former high priest leaders in Jerusalem (Ananas ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel) were murdered and left unburied in the streets, with their Zealot enemies rejoicing at their deaths - just as the sixth trumpet judgment predicted for them.


Your presumption that any books of scripture were written after AD 70 is just that - a presumption. Internal evidences for the rest of the NT writings (as well as Revelation) also prove they were penned before AD 70. This is why there is no mention of Christ's AD 70 coming return - or the destruction of Jerusalem - as having already occurred.


I would not be posting about a THIRD coming and THIRD resurrection event if I did not see it being taught in scripture.


Don't you remember the various texts that describe God crushing Satan's head, slaying the Dragon that is in the Sea, and burning up the anointed cherubim to ashes so that "never shalt thou exist anymore"? God was going to destroy Satan utterly as well as every one of the evil hosts of angelic beings. The unclean spirits are now gone from this world, as well as Satan and his devils. Probably the only difference between you and me is the timing of this destruction of Satan and his hordes of evil angels.


"There is nothing new under the sun." Whether you have encountered anyone that presents these things before or not. I am not that original.

This is getting too long...and you seem to like to repeat yourself.

Bottom line...the bible doesn't confirm your point of view.
History doesn't confirm your point of view.
Biblical language..."world" actually meaning Jerusalem...doesn't confirm your point of view.

I have no reason to believe some form of return, resurrection or rapture happened in AD70.

You are way outside of the scope of the bible.