The Rapture

[Eleanor]

Do the natural branches cease to be natural branches of the tree?

It's one tree, the church, of both OT and NT saints, ( Ro 11:16-23), which
is the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for all eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures, the private interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not.

 

[Eleanor]

You cite but apply scripture at the expense of other scripture for why you are applying His words wrong. I cannot help you. Only God can.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

 

[ChristB4us]

In other words, you can't refute what she says, so you revert to ad hom and arrogance, disguised as pity.

Seeing how you thought that was funny, truth is the truth as there can be no lie of the truth.

That is what she is doing as she is sticking that one singular verse Numbers 12:8 out of context at the expense of other scripture as if parables are not prophetic riddles at all. She certainly applied it to the Book of Revelation claiming others for private interpretation and yet she will not address those verses at all.

So do you believe what she is saying that the rapture and the raising of the dead in the "last day" will only occur at the Great White Throne Judgment because that is what she is saying and she is wrong for why she is not rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[ChristB4us]

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

I cannot give you eyes to see or ears to hear. Only Jesus can help you now. I'll send a prayer up for you as I can only hope Jesus will continue to minister to you in showing the truth in His words.

 

[Eleanor]

I'll send a prayer up for you as I can only hope Jesus will continue to minister to you in showing the truth in His words.

Thanks, and I'll do the same for you, that he show you the truth regarding elevating your private interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) above his authoritative NT apostolic teaching, as in the following:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33

So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.

Likewise, the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for all eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures, the private interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not.

 

[ChristB4us]

Thanks, and I'll do the same for you, that he show you the truth regarding elevating your private interpretation of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8) above his authoritative NT apostolic teaching, as in the following:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming(Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33

So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.

Likewise, the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures, and not the private interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8).

Thank you for sharing although I still disagree with you.

@makesends

Do you agree with her line of reasoning and application or not? I sure do not.

 

[Eleanor]

Thank you for sharing although I still disagree with you.

That you don't see the teaching of the apostles as authoritative to the church speaks volumes regarding your grasp of the NT.

@makesends

Do you agree with her line of reasoning and application or not? I sure do not.

 

[makesends]

Thank you for sharing although I still disagree with you.

@makesends

Do you agree with her line of reasoning and application or not? I sure do not.

I don't even know what you are referring to. You keep talking about her line of reasoning but I don't even know what you think it is.

 

[makesends]

Seeing how you thought that was funny, truth is the truth as there can be no lie of the truth.

That is what she is doing as she is sticking that one singular verse Numbers 12:8 out of context at the expense of other scripture as if parables are not prophetic riddles at all. She certainly applied it to the Book of Revelation claiming others for private interpretation and yet she will not address those verses at all.

So do you believe what she is saying that the rapture and the raising of the dead in the "last day" will only occur at the Great White Throne Judgment because that is what she is saying and she is wrong for why she is not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Oh, ok finally. Thanks for spelling it out. Do I agree with her? I haven't made up my mind if it can only occur at the GWT, though I tend to think that way, but I know very well that the Dispensational POV is replete with error. I grew up on it, and even as a kid had questions nobody answered me, that didn't make sense, concerning its relationship to the Gospel. Maybe 60 years later, now, they still don't make sense, and nobody has given me a satisfactory answer, but inevitably reverts to "...not rightly dividing" as if assertion is proof, or arrogant ad hom —"...only God can help you now."

 

[makesends]

Thank you for sharing although I still disagree with you.

@makesends

Do you agree with her line of reasoning and application or not? I sure do not.

Her line of reasoning, btw, includes her accepting the authority of the Apostle's teaching in Scripture, over YOUR acceptance of dispensationalism as necessary truth. But yeah, I figured you'd come up with arguments as to the end result, and not how you got there. I agree with her 100% on the authority of the Apostle's scriptural teaching, over anything humans can come up with. Particularly, Dispensationalism, when it directly contradicts the Gospel.

There is only one Gospel in the end, one need for salvation, one Savior, one chosen people.

 

[armylngst]

Absolutely and until they are in the trunk.
Only those branches in the trunk are the tree.
The cut-off branches on the ground are no longer the tree, and remain such unless they are grafted back in.

It's called botany.

Then why did Paul not say that. Why did he not speak of them as still being natural branches, and thus easy to be grafted back in? It is the grafting of a foreign branch they can, in some cases always will, end in failure. You are forgetting that Paul is making an analogy, not some scientific statement. He wasn't a farmer, he was a Jewish legal scholar turned Christ follower.

 

[makesends]

Why did he not speak of them as still being natural branches, and thus easy to be grafted back in?

He did.

 

[Eleanor]

Then why did Paul not say that.

He assumed the Romans knew their botany.

 

[makesends]

Why did he not speak of them as still being natural branches, and thus easy to be grafted back in?

He did.

 

[armylngst]

It's one tree, the church, of both OT and NT saints, ( Ro 11:16-23), which
is the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for all eternity.

But that isn't what scripture says. That is your interpretation, which is not in keeping with a plain reading of what Paul wrote in Romans 9-11.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

Nuh huh. It is your interpretation which is not in agreement. (I can keep up this argument of my interpretation verses your interpretation all day. It doesn't change the fact that you cannot simply annex what someone says and make yourself the authority of it. You can't simply take what they say, and say that only your interpretation is correct. That isn't how it works. Especially when what they say doesn't match with what you are saying.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures, the private interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not.

This is how the Catholic Churches kept the masses enthralled and chained to false teaching for centuries. The Catholic Church claimed to be the source of all truth, and the only ones with a proper understanding of what the apostles taught. Except what they said wasn't in keeping with a proper reading of the apostles. This is why the Catholic Church fought to keep the Bible out of the hands of the people. They would lose their control over the people, if the people actually knew what the Bible taught.

You keep giving a false interpretation of Numbers 12, and it is not helping. Not at all. We have examples of prophets in the Old Testament, a long with MANY examples of God not speaking in riddles. This should further tell you that your interpretation was not at all God's intent with Numbers 12, verse 8 or any other verse in Numbers 12. God was telling Miriam and Aaron that of all the people in the assembly at that time, to include prophets, he would not speak to anyone the way he speaks to Moses. Moses did not make himself the one who lead Israel, God put Moses in that position, and God would not stand for Aaron and Miriam's attempt to usurp Moses' position. What upset God the most is that Aaron and Miriam did not present any fear before casting aspersion and accusation at the one God chose. They didn't even consider God.

 

[Eleanor]

It's one tree, the church, of both OT and NT saints, ( Ro 11:16-23), which
is the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for all eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures, the private interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not.

But that isn't what scripture says. That is your interpretation,

QED

 

[ChristB4us]

Oh, ok finally. Thanks for spelling it out. Do I agree with her? I haven't made up my mind if it can only occur at the GWT, though I tend to think that way, but I know very well that the Dispensational POV is replete with error. I grew up on it, and even as a kid had questions nobody answered me, that didn't make sense, concerning its relationship to the Gospel. Maybe 60 years later, now, they still don't make sense, and nobody has given me a satisfactory answer, but inevitably reverts to "...not rightly dividing" as if assertion is proof, or arrogant ad hom —"...only God can help you now."

I am not sure exactly what Dispensational POV is, but if you have questions about the pre-great tribulation rapture, feel free to ask & God be willing, I or someone else may provide the answer that the Lord will give to you & enable you to see. It has to be on Him to cause the increase.

 

[ChristB4us]

Her line of reasoning, btw, includes her accepting the authority of the Apostle's teaching in Scripture, over YOUR acceptance of dispensationalism as necessary truth.

At the expense of other scripture by citing them as prophetic riddles so as to disregard them altogether.

And so she cannot claim the authority of Apostle's teaching when she ignores their actual teachings.

But yeah, I figured you'd come up with arguments as to the end result, and not how you got there. I agree with her 100% on the authority of the Apostle's scriptural teaching, over anything humans can come up with. Particularly, Dispensationalism, when it directly contradicts the Gospel.

You will have to share what it is that is Dispensationalism that is contradictory. I may not know everything that is considered Dispensationalism but feel free to cite the contradictions for why you do no believe in the pre great tribulation rapture event.

There is only one Gospel in the end, one need for salvation, one Savior, one chosen people.

If you believe there will be a 1000 year reign of the King of kings on earth after the great tribulation, how are the generations following those resurrected will be saved since they can see the King of kings and so hardly can be said to be saved by faith?

Is it done when after that 1000 year reign when Satan is loose from the pit to stage a last rebellion for a small season, by seeing who remains loyal to Christ, the King, and those who side with Satan?

Just like after the rapture, those who will believe in Jesus Christ then along with the left behind unrepentant saints & former believers that were not ready from who will resort to the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive after that fiery calamity destroys the third of the earth ( the western hemisphere ) whereby the consequence is the lake of fire for taking that mark, no matter what.

 

[ChristB4us]

That you don't see the teaching of the apostles as authoritative to the church speaks volumes regarding your grasp of the NT.

I just do not see you rightly dividing the word of truth and so it is not about me not believing the apostles words or Jesus's words at all.

Just because you spout the authority of the apostles teachings does not mean you are applying it right.

 

[Eleanor]

At the expense of other scripture by citing them as prophetic riddles so as to disregard them altogether.

And so she cannot claim the authority of Apostle's teaching when she ignores their actual teachings.

You will have to share what it is that is Dispensationalism that is contradictory. I may not know everything that is considered Dispensationalism but feel free to cite the contradictions for why you do not believe in the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Let me save him the trouble. It's because it is in disagreement with the folllowing apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33

So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.

Carry on.

If you believe there will be a 1000 year reign of the King of kings on earth after the great tribulation, how are the generations following those resurrected will be saved since they can see the King of kings and so hardly can be said to be saved by faith?

Is it done when after that 1000 year reign when Satan is loose from the pit to stage a last rebellion for a small season, by seeing who remains loyal to Christ, the King, and those who side with Satan?

Just like after the rapture, those who will believe in Jesus Christ then along with the left behind unrepentant saints & former believers that were not ready from who will resort to the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive after that fiery calamity destroys the third of the earth ( the western hemisphere ) whereby the consequence is the lake of fire for taking that mark, no matter what.