• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Six Problems Inherent in Dispensationalism: Examples

Dispenastionists do. I see nothing in the doctrine itself about such things. There's a difference between the doctrine, and people expounding things from it.

Nothing in dispensational doctrine is contary to any Scripture. Certain expoundings pertaining to the Israel of God on earth, and prophecies of the Lord's coming and kingdom on earth, are true, false, and half-true.

Many people expound on the doctrine of Christ found in Scripture, that is either false, true, or mixed up. It does not mean the doctrine of Christ is not all true.
What kind of a response is this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'll give the Bible's:

Psa 67:4O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.

Later prophecies expound on this first prophecy of the Lord giverning all nations upon the earth.

It will be after the Lord comes and descends into the air with a shout and trump and power, and it will be with His first resurrected saints. It will be after the slaughter of His swift war around Judea, concluding with the Lord standing on Mt Olivet with a roar of triumph. He will build His temple in Jersualem, and give resurrected Abraham the land promised him and his natural seed remaining alive on earth. They will have their natural priesthood around the King, that are outwardly and inwardly circumcised by the Spirit. There will be animal sacrifices for sanctification of the sancturary and errors of the offspring of Abraham. All nations will be governed by one law of the King, and judged by His resurrected brethren in all cities given them for ministerial reward. There will be no more wars of nations, with peace between man and beast. The people of the nations will be free to come to hear the King Himself, and some will hold skirts of Jews to find where and when. Any nation not coming up to worship the King at the yearly feast of tabernalces will be plagued with no rain. The kingdom of heaven will be come over all the earth, as it is in heaven, but the risen Lord and King Jesus Christ Himself in resurrected flesh and bones, with peach on earth, good will toward men. His governing with His saints upon the earth will expire from the day His coming into the air, to (I suppose) the day ending the thousand years.
You didn't give the Bible's. You gave your interpretation of the Bible and it contradicts what the Bible says in many places. Why do you not dealt with 1 Thess 4 and 2 Cor 15 that I gave that describe his second coming?

One cannot descend into the air. Rev says he is the temple, and nowhere says he will build a temple. Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

If there are animal sacrifices, Jesus died in vain and if animals are being slaughtered for sacrifice there will be no peace between man and beast. You claim that is what the Bible says and then completely make it up. You keep talking, and talking and talking, but you have no clue what you are talking about.
 
You didn't give the Bible's. You gave your interpretation of the Bible and it contradicts what the Bible says in many places.
Every point I made has Scripture for it. However, as I said, if the first I gave prophesying the Lord's coming to govern the nations upon the earth, is rejected, then why bother giving the accompanying ones?

If you agree the Scripture I did give, is plain enough about the Lord coming to govern all nations upon the earth, and want to see the rest, then I'll be glad to give them for you. Otherwise, I don't cast pearls uselessly.

But, I will certainly entertain any Scriptures you may have, that you say contradict any point I have made about His millinial gvt upon the earth.
 
Why do you not dealt with 1 Thess 4 and 2 Cor 15 that I gave that describe his second coming?
See post 48.

But I did miss the first part.


At the sound of th last turmpet when Jesus returns, the dead in Christ will be resurrected immortal and imperishable, and those who are still alive will be changed in the twinkling of and eye.
True. You left out the resurrected and changed saints rising into the air to meet the Lord there.

Unbelievers will face the wrath of God in judgement,
True

Satan and his side kicks will be thrown forever into the fiery pit,
False. Only for the thousand years of Christ's governing the nations upon the earth.

Then the devil decieves the nations after the Lord's governing expires, for one last rebellion of men this earth, and they are destroyed by fire from God in heaven.

The the devil is cast forever into the LOF, where the beast and false prophet were caste a thousand years earlier.

and death will be destroyed.

Not true. There will be no death within the New Jersualem on the new earth, where God and the Lamb will dwell with man forever.

But outside the gates there will be sickness and death, except they enter to eat of the healing leaves of the tree of life. But only the righteous will be allowed to do so. Unrepenting transgressors cannot enter, and so will die outside the gates, except they repent to enter with the righteous nations.


Dispensationalism has all this happening and then Jesus sitting on a throne in a physical rebuilt temple as animal sacrifices are resumed. Mortal and sinful humans living alongside the resurrected righteous, and all the immortal, incorruptible, people. Armies of enemies (sinners) making war against national Israel. Where did these people come from? And if the devil has been destroyed and death destroyed and Jesus has already been victorious, where do these evil people come from? If Jesus is the final perfect sacrifice, why are bulls and rams being offered in worship to God? Even though Is. 11 tells us when Jesus returns in the consummation, the bear will graze with the cow?
See post 48 for answer to these things.
 
One cannot descend into the air.
The Lord can anything and according to prophecy will do so:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He descends from heaven to meet with His resurrected saints in the air.

Mat 24:27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Rev 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

His coming again will be with clouds of the sky in the air, shining as lightning over all the earth.

You must have a personal problem with the Lord descending into the air at His return, seeing your earlier summary conspicuously left out the saints rising into the air to meet Him there.
Rev says he is the temple, and nowhere says he will build a temple.
I would provide the Scripture for it from my earlier summary. But only if you first agree the Scripture I did give, that the Lord will govern the nations upon the earth. Otherwise, no point in doing so.



Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
New Jersualem on the new earth, is not any city on this earth. This heaven and earth will flee from the face of the Lord on His GWT, and pass away.

If there are animal sacrifices, Jesus died in vain
The Lord can, and prophesies He will have animal sacrifices for the natural house of Israel, when He sits on His throne of glory King over all nations of the earth.

Your personal belief of Him making His own past death vain, is an argument you can try to make with Him.

In Scripture, the only way to make His death and faith in Him vain, if He did not rise again.

1Co 15:14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.





and if animals are being slaughtered for sacrifice there will be no peace between man and beast.
Your personal philosophy and ethics on such things are meaningless to the Lord, who will certainly do all things He prophesies in Scripture about Himself.

Pagan vegans claim killing of animals is murder, and it's against peace between man and beast.

There is nothing in prophecy of the Lord's millennium, that says there will be no meat eating, but only that the animals will not bite not attack each other, nor any person.

Vain self-righteous unbelievers today proclaim that the OT sacrifices were inhuman, and the God of Israel ordaining them was evil to do so. And they're not all animal rights acitivists, that unjustly accuse the Lord of wrong animal bloodshed on earth.

I only teach the Lord's own words. I do not insert my own personal opinions nor philosophy about His words, and I especially do not accuse Him of doing bad things by my ethics.
You claim that is what the Bible says and then completely make it up.
Believe the Scripture I first gave, and then I will be glad to post all the rest of the Scriptures, that prove each point I make.
 
Last edited:
True. You left out the resurrected and changed saints rising into the air to meet the Lord there.
I did not leave it out. It is in the Scripture given.

I assume that is what you interpret to refer to a pre-trib rapture of the redeemed. If that is the case you have Jesus returning part way, then either staying there or returning to heaven with the saints and remaining there until after the tribulation. In which case you have not one return of Christ, but two returns of Christ. And, as is said, this is for the purpose of God sparing his people from his wrath that is going to come up on the whole world for seven years, or 31/2 depending on how one chooses to interpret the book. But why then are the dead in Christ raised at that time?

So lets look at the times in which Paul wrote to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians. In his writings, Paul often used imagery of the Romans, and his audience would be very familiar with it. Is that maybe what he is doing here with the resurrected and changed saints rising to meet Christ in the air?

When the Roman armies went out to do battle and conquer enemies, if they were victorious, they would return with all the soldiers and the captives. Just outside of town they would stop and send a messenger into the city to announce the victory. An arch would be built for the conquerers to pass through and the city would be decorated festively. When this was all done, a trumpet would be sounded which was the signal for all the Roman citizens to go out and meet the army and together the army and the citizens would march into the city with shouts of victory passing through the arch.

If this is what Paul was doing, we have one return of Christ, no specific identification of the tribulation as to time. We have the complete victory of Christ. As Paul later says, the death of death, in that very same chapter 1 Cor 15, and during the very same discussion of the resurrection. And the very thing he is saying in 1 Thess 4:13-18 where he is discussing the return of the Lord.

It is the end of this age and the restoration of all things. Rev 21. There is no literal thousand years of dealing with the redemption of national Israel that follows. The thousand years represents the period between his resurrection and his return. Just as a thousand and multiples of a thousand elsewhere in Scripture represents a long but specified by number period of time.

It is just that you and countless others do not know how to read prophecy and particularly the book of Revelation. It is a very difficult book because we are so far away from the time of its writing and it is alien to us. It was not alien to the original recipients of the letter. Dispensationalist tend to try and interpret it utterly forgetting it contains a series of visions, and go all literal as though it were not a vision, no matter if it contradicts other Scripture or is inconsistent with itself.
 
See post 48 for answer to these things.
It answers nothing. It is just you giving your presuppositional opinions. These conversations are an exercise in futility, because the statements made as though they were fact, and that never teach the letter as a letter or as a whole but a bit here and a bit there, demand practically a full exposition of the entire book, complete with Scriptural support point by point, in order to show the fantastical fallacies and Scripture contradictions in the assertions. Whole large volumes have been dedicated to doing that. You might try studying one of them that comes from a non-dispensationalist view such as A Case for Amillennialism by Kim Riddlebarger. But of course you won't. People are usually quite comfortable in the place where they are entrenched and have not the courage or curiosity to look at anything else.

So long.
 
But, I will certainly entertain any Scriptures you may have, that you say contradict any point I have made about His millinial gvt upon the earth.
Well, I gave two and a whole post on them. Post #65. Both of them contradict your interpretation of Christ ruling during a literal thousand years. When will you address them in some way beside say in effect, "Nuh Uhh."
 
If that is the case you have Jesus returning part way,

If you want to call it a part-way return with a pit-stop in the sky first with clouds, and then on to the earth in Jerusalem, with a one-sided war along the way. That's fine by me.

then either staying there or returning to heaven with the saints and remaining there until after the tribulation.
In which case you have not one return of Christ, but two returns of Christ.
Good observation for those teaching that error in prophecy.

And, as is said, this is for the purpose of God sparing his people from his wrath that is going to come up on the whole world for seven years, or 31/2 depending on how one chooses to interpret the book.
True. Although I believe His great wrath and tribulations upon the inhabitors of the earth is mercifully far quicker than people think.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.




But why then are the dead in Christ raised at that time?
Because He promises us in John 14, that His principle purpose is to come and recieve His own unto Himself. That included them at the time, the same as today.

And also, the Lord didn't flood the earth just to destroy the wicked, but His first purpose was to save Noah from the wrath of the wicked. Peter confirms this by saying that family was saved by the water.

And so, also at His coming the Lord's first work is save all His righteous family from His plagues of wrath, by the Spirit's ark of resurrection and rapture.

So lets look at the times in which Paul wrote to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians. In his writings, Paul often used imagery of the Romans, and his audience would be very familiar with it. Is that maybe what he is doing here with the resurrected and changed saints rising to meet Christ in the air?
Of course the pagan world was full of imagery and myths. But the Lord's prophecies are sure, especially that of His coming with His first resurrection of saints to meet Him in the air.

2Pe 1:16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

And Paul condemns any teaching that the first resurrection is before the Lord returns.

2Ti 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.



If this is what Paul was doing,
God does not use Rome's example of victory parades as a great idea for His own return.

No prophet and apostle of God is doing anything but write what God tells them. They are not spinning their own tales borrowed from pagans.

And God especially doesn't borrow anything from man's manners and beliefs for His own prophecy and doctrine.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Only unbelievers in Scriptures of God read God's words as being a man's personal interpretation of things of God, or writing from manners and beliefs of other men.


Paul knew the fables of past Jews, as well as the writings of Plato, but he didn't use any of it to write what God says and does.

Tit 1:14Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Sola Scriptura begins with all Scripture being independent of men's manners and beliefs and philosophies.

 
we have one return of Christ, no specific identification of the tribulation as to time. We have the complete victory of Christ.
True.

As Paul later says, the death of death, in that very same chapter 1 Cor 15, and during the very same discussion of the resurrection.
True. The end of death for resurrected and changed saints. Not for the ungodly dying to God on earth, and forever dead to God in the second death.

It is the end of this age
True. It will be the end of man's gvt on earth without Christ. Only the resurrected saints will be governing with the Lord upon the earth, over every city given them by reward of faithful service.

and the restoration of all things. Rev 21.
No restoration, but a new heaven and earth.

There is no literal thousand years of dealing with the redemption of national Israel that follows.
If you mean the establishing of Abraham's natural seed in the land given to resurrected Abraham, that is during the Lord's millennium on this earth.

Nothing is said of Jew or Gentile on the new earth, but only of nations outside the gates of New Jerusalem, and God and the Lamb dwelling with man in New Jersualem.

If you mean the Lord's millennium is not a thousand years on this earth, then that is just anti-Lord's millennium governing upon the earth.

The thousand years represents the period between his resurrection and his return.
There is no time allowed for in prophecy of Scripture, between the Lord's return and resurrection of His people. He descends with a shout into the air, resurrects His people at the same moment in a twinkling of the eye, and then has them ascend to meet Him up there, where the clouds are brightest.


Just as a thousand and multiples of a thousand elsewhere in Scripture represents a long but specified by number period of time.
Sure, but the thousand years of the Lord's governing upon the earth is a thousand years, that expires after the thousand years is up. Probably to the day.

I'm not sure why people claiming faith in the Bible as the sure and perfect word of God, want to then change them, as though God has made a mistake, or the apostles wrote them in error. Some run to manuscript arguments to change God's words. The created Christ-angel believers have to do that alot, just to deny John 1:1.

It's all the same thing. Whether adding a in John 1:1, or as in Rev 20:2-6.


It is just that you and countless others do not know how to read prophecy and particularly the book of Revelation.
Not like some I don't add my own words to God's words, where they don't belong. Such as adding the word as to Scripture in Rev 20, where no as is.


It is a very difficult book because we are so far away from the time of its writing and it is alien to us.
Quite a confession. But then, that's what happens when people change God's words to suit themselves. His own words become more and more alien to them, the more they do so. And Scripture is written to ensure anyone changing the words in one place, will be compelled to change the words of other places in the Bible.



It was not alien to the original recipients of the letter.
Nor to me. If you mean the Jews and Gentiles were conversant in their own histories, legends, and myths, then there remains enough writiings for any modern reader to get the gist of such things.

But, of course, none of them apply to God's teaching and prophecy, unless specifically recorded in Scriptures of truth.





Dispensationalist tend to try and interpret it utterly forgetting it contains a series of visions,

Which are visions of true things to come. Christ is not a false prophet writing of things that do not come to pass as written.

Eze 8:4And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.

Many people don't believe the vision of God on His throne in the air above the plain, was real.

Eze 43:2And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

Eze 43:3And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.


And some don't believe the vision of the Lord entering the house of His kingdom upon the earth. I mean, if someone's not going to believe the first vision at Chebar was real, then of course they're not going to beleive the latter vision of the Lord in Jerusalem to come.

It's like anyone not believing the first prophecy of the Lord coming to govern all nations upon the earth, they certainly aren't goiing to believe any of the following prophecies about Him doing so.

and go all literal as though it were not a vision, no matter if it contradicts other Scripture or is inconsistent with itself.
Show where any Scripture taken literally, contradicts other Scripture taken literally.

 
True. The end of death for resurrected and changed saints. Not for the ungodly dying to God on earth, and forever dead to God in the second death.
You are avoiding the issue.
True. It will be the end of man's gvt on earth without Christ. Only the resurrected saints will be governing with the Lord upon the earth, over every city given them by reward of faithful service.
There are only two pages mentioned in NT. This age and the age to come. Not this age, and another age and another age after that. Stop avoiding the issue.
No restoration, but a new heaven and earth.
The restoration of all things the way it was created to be. In case you never noticed, God created the earth to be our home. We trampled all over it. It is being restored. And yes it is new. Utterly cleansed.
If you mean the establishing of Abraham's natural seed in the land given to resurrected Abraham, that is during the Lord's millennium on this earth.
Abraham's natural descendants lost the land by
breaking the covenant. Redemption is for all nations---all the land. Believers will inherit the earth. The spiritual seed of Abraham is true and faithful Israel, not ethnic Israel. God can make descendants of Abraham from stones.
Nothing is said of Jew or Gentile on the new earth, but only of nations outside the gates of New Jerusalem, and God and the Lamb dwelling with man in New Jersualem.
Again, you say something entirely wrong that would take an exposition of the whole Bible to correct. That is what happens when the Bible is divided into bits and pieces. But it is convenient for those presenting things poorly thought out and never closely examined. Because who is going to bother, knowing it won't even be read. The book of Revelation is a part of the same Bible and the same continuing story (of redemption)
as is every page that precedes it. It is not isolated from any part of it. In truth, it is a summary of the whole and a conclusion. And it is given quite often from the perspective of heaven, and describes symbolically what has been going on in the spiritual realm as it plays out of earth.
If you mean the Lord's millennium is not a thousand years on this earth, then that is just anti-Lord's millennium governing upon the earth.
If you think Jesus isn't reigning now, that is anti the Lord's victory on the cross.
There is no time allowed for in prophecy of Scripture, between the Lord's return and resurrection of His people.
That is right but you have a thousand years after the resurrection of his people. And also what has that to do with what I said? Which was that the thousand years represents in Rev, as it does elsewhere in the Bible, a long period of time that is known only by God. It is the time between the resurrection and Christ's return. We are in it now. So instead of looking for an escape hatch, and a rebuilt temple, and animal sacrifices, and black hawk helicopters, and the mark of the beast, and a one world gov. (all of which you believe you will not be here to see anyway), do as Jesus said. "Be ready."
Sure, but the thousand years of the Lord's governing upon the earth is a thousand years, that expires after the thousand years is up. Probably to the day.
:ROFLMAO: I say the thousand years is not literal but represents a long unspecified period of time and is the time between the two advents, and the above is your response? Do you comprehend what you read?
I'm not sure why people claiming faith in the Bible as the sure and perfect word of God, want to then change them, as though God has made a mistake, or the apostles wrote them in error. Some run to manuscript arguments to change God's words. The created Christ-angel believers have to do that alot, just to deny John 1:1.
It is your interpretation that is in error. Not the Bible. It is you we don't agree with. Not the Bible.
Not like some I don't add my own words to God's words, where they don't belong. Such as adding the word as to Scripture in Rev 20, where no as is.
You do add your own interpretation which you seem to think is infallible, and it is because of what I said. You don't know how to read and interpret prophecy.
Quite a confession. But then, that's what happens when people change God's words to suit themselves. His own words become more and more alien to them, the more they do so. And Scripture is written to ensure anyone changing the words in one place, will be compelled to change the words of other places in the Bible.
Oh gobledegoop. If your responses to my posts are an example, you do not seem to be able to comprehend basic English structures, and yet we are supposed to believe you are as familiar with the Hebrew mindset and the symbolism (all of which is taken from OT prophecy and writings and directly relates to the prophecy there)of the visions as John's mainly Hebrew audience over 2000 years ago?
Nor to me. If you mean the Jews and Gentiles were conversant in their own histories, legends, and myths, then there remains enough writiings for any modern reader to get the gist of such things.
It is alien to you. You simply make up what you think something means and then truly believe that is what it means. After all, how could you possibly be wrong?
Which are visions of true things to come. Christ is not a false prophet writing of things that do not come to pass as written.
I did not say they did not contain true information. But the visions are representing something and are not the actual thing. The visions are saying something. You and countless others, do not look at them as visions and search out the message, but as a great literal puzzle to be solved----not unlike in essence, reading tea leaves. I wonder if you are able to summarize the message of Revelation, the reason John wrote it to those seven churches, and my extension to us, in one sentence. Two max.
Show where any Scripture taken literally, contradicts other Scripture taken literally.
Huh?
 
True. The end of death for resurrected and changed saints. Not for the ungodly dying to God on earth, and forever dead to God in the second death.

The second death. The death of death along with the daily suffering called hell .

Yoked with Christ he can make the sufferings lighter .

The letter of the law. Death . Found in . book of law, the bible will not be part of the new order .Death will have no place .

The former things from this corrupted creation will not be remembered or ever come to mind

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
 
The second death. The death of death along with the daily suffering called hell .

As I said, denying Scriptrue as unreal, and only figurative, makes just another lying fable out of the Bible.
The former things from this corrupted creation
The only thing morally corrupt about Christ's creation, is angels and men created in His image, that choose to corrupt themselves with lust for His creation, that God never aproves.
 
There are only two pages mentioned in NT. This age and the age to come. A Not this age, and another age and another age after that.
Eph 2:7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

What I love about God's words, is that He has foreseen every lie, so that He has written every exposure and rebuke of them.

The restoration of all things the way it was created to be. In case you never noticed, God created the earth to be our home. We trampled all over it. It is being restored. And yes it is new. Utterly cleansed.
Natural creation is not born again. Only redeemed souls are born again and are transformed into new creatures of God.

Heb 1:10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

This heaven and earth will pass away and perish, and will be changed for new clothing, not washed and reused.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Burned up, not washed and dried.



as a great literal puzzle to be solved--
It is a great literal puzzle. And it requires all teaching and prophecy of Scripture to piece it together perfectly whole and true.

But much of Revelation is, of course, simply true without any need to confirm it by other Scriptures, though they certainly can be. Such as this heaven and earth will pass away, and God will create a new heaven and earth. Not wash and dry the old, to be like new.

We see how it infectious it is to keep changing Scripture, once any Scripture is changed. Firstly, the thousand years is cahnged to only as a thousand years, and then the new heaven and earth is cahnged to only like new.

When God creates anything, it is created new for the first time.


Which was that the thousand years represents in Rev, as it does elsewhere in the Bible, a long period of time that is known only by God.
Other Scriptures do speak of a day being as a thousand years. Rev 20 only speaks of the and a thousand years. 6 times to ensure anyone getting it wrong, is doing so on purpose. In fact, in none of the 6 Scriptures for a and the thousand years, does the word as even appear.

God wants us to know His prophecy is true as written, so that He doesn't even have the word in any of the verses, for false translators to nudge it closer to the thousand years.

People add to the words of God to change them, and people that take away from the actual truth of His words, turn them into fables.



describes symbolically what has been going on in the spiritual realm as it plays out of earth.
There are symbolic things in Revelation, which Scripture makes known to be symbolic, and sometimes explains what they symbolize.

But the true things that are made only into symbols by man, only makes more fables of man out of the Bible.


You do add your own interpretation which you seem to think is infallible,
Show how teaching the thousand years in Rev 20, is the thousand years, is falsely teaching the thousand years in Rev 20.

I can show how teaching the thousand years in Rev 20 is only as a thousand years, is adding the word as to the Scripture.



You don't know how to read and interpret prophecy.
Rev 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Scripture speaks of the and a thousand years, with no as there at all. Simple and easy enough.

But the visions are representing something and are not the actual thing.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,
 
Last edited:
Abraham's natural descendants lost the land bybreaking the covenant.
True. And they lost the covenant by killing Jesus Christ in the flesh.

But of course, the land was not just promised to them, but to Abraham personally.

Gen 17:8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The Lord will raise him from the dead to do so.



It is the time between the resurrection and Christ's return.
There is still time between Jesus Christ's resurrection and His return bodily to earth.

There is no resurrection of the body of Christ yesterday before His return,

2Ti 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
So instead of looking for an escape hatch,
There is no escape from the tribulation and wrath of the ungodly upon the godly on this earth. It's promised. There is escape from the tribulation and wrath of God upon all inhabitors of the earth, by the first resurrection of His church at His coming again.





Oh gobledegoop. If your responses to my posts are an example, you do not seem to be able to comprehend basic English structures, and yet we are supposed to believe you are as familiar with the Hebrew mindset
God doesn't write with any man's mindset, but His own:

Phl 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

1Co 2:16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


All Scripture is given to all men to read and believe and do, or not. Man's mindset must be changed by His word to have His mind.


The visions are saying something.
True. They are saying what shall surely come to pass.

Rev 1:3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Prophecy not yet come to pass, can certainly teach us things today to practice for ourselves, even as the Bible record of past events are written to insutruct us today.

1Co 10:11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


Undoing the actual events past and to come, is not necessary to be taught by them. And changing the events into symbols only, also changes the teaching for us from the event.

Especially if undoing the prophesied event, is for the purpose of believing in a spirit-only fable of reigning now with Christ in heaven over all the earth. Which is fantasized by some in order to do away with God judging them by their own sinful works.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This one Scripture is why some not only do not believe the Lord's millennium, but are fervently against it. So they can claim a resurrection and reigning for themselves already, where the second death can't touch them.

2Ti 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.



I wonder if you are able to summarize the message of Revelation, the reason John wrote it to those seven churches, and my extension to us, in one sentence. Two max.
Rev 1:3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

If you think Jesus isn't reigning now, that is anti the Lord's victory on the cross.
We know someone is failing in their argument, when they must obviously lie about other teachings.
 
As I said, denying Scriptrue as unreal, and only figurative, makes just another lying fable out of the Bible.

The only thing morally corrupt about Christ's creation, is angels and men created in His image, that choose to corrupt themselves with lust for His creation, that God never aproves.

Hi thanks

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

They solve the mystery of faith (unseen eternal) things of Christ our husband

Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Seems like you are confused to what a parable and what it is used for?

A parable is a teaching story that illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles. It differs from a fable in that fables employ animals, plants, inanimate objects, or forces of nature as characters, where parables have human characters.

They hide the unseen spiritual understand for non redeemed and faithfully reveal it to His redeemed

The poetic language of real parables which without Christ spoke not. They must be mixed with the temporal historical . . literal or no gospel rest can be found .

The prescription below is used to rightly divide (interpret parables) must be used . He has not given us the recipe for nothing

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Many knowing the language of faith (the unseen eternal) is a mystery resort to another form of mysteries form the King of ltyng signs to wonder, wonder wonder after .as if it was prophecy .

Tw choice.(1) seek after lying signs to wonder after as if prophecy Or rightly divide the prophecy parables. as seeking the spiritual understanding

Parable teach us how to find the mysteries of faith the unseen power of Christ
 
Hi thanks

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

They solve the mystery of faith (unseen eternal) things of Christ our husband

Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Seems like you are confused to what a parable and what it is used for?
When Jesus spoke in parables, the Bible says so. The same for Paul giving an allegory. When Jesus spoke of certain true events, the Bible says so as well.

Turning events in parables only, is denying the truth of the event, and turning Scripture ontly into fables.



The poetic language of real parables which without Christ spoke not. They must be mixed with the temporal historical . . literal
Parables teach. Events are recorded and prophesied.


Parable teach us how to find the mysteries of faith the unseen power of Christ
Teaching events for parables is the favorite tool for denying true events recorded and prophesied in Scripture.
 
True. And they lost the covenant by killing Jesus Christ in the flesh.
Did they lose it by killing Christ or not accepting that He was the final sacrifice?
 
Did they lose it by killing Christ or not accepting that He was the final sacrifice?
The death of the Lord Jesus Christ was the end of the LORD's covenant made at the mount with the children of Jacob.

Then in the Jews religion, unbelievers in the resurrected Lord Jesus, continued offering sacrfices, until the destruction of the Jersusalem temple.

The covenant the Lord first made with Abraham and his natural seed, was a personal promise to give Abraham the land he walked on. Abraham has not yet recieved that promise, because the Lord has not yet fulfilled that covenant to him and the children of Jacob on this earth.

Therefore, only after the Lord's return and first resurrection of His saints, will He fulfill the promise to resurrected Abraham, and his natural seed remaing alive on the earth.
 
Back
Top