The Rapture

[ChristB4us]

What Jesus' apostles teach in the NT is authoritative for the church.

Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation (the only rule being they must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching) are not authoritative but speculative and, when measured against apostolic teaching, they are in contradiction to it. God's word does not contradict itself. Those interpretations are incorrect.
I interpret those riddles differently than you do, and my interpretation is in agreement with apostolic teaching, where yours is not.

Okay. Now I understand you. I had thought someone was applying Numbers 12:8 for proving the rapture but you are the one applying it to discredit scriptures yourself. Here I had thought you were having an angst against Numbers 12:8 when in actuality, you are applying that out of context.

Okay then.. argue with Jesus.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. 33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
So you cannot apply Numbers 12:8 to the New Testament at all.

Numbers 12;5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. 6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? 9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.

In context, the Lord is talking about how He will send prophets among them by dreams or visions, but with Moses, He will speak to him directly with no dark speeches as speaking plainly since Moses being His spokesperson.

So you are wrong to apply Numbers 12:8 to disregarding prophetic riddles for then you are disregarding the parables of Jesus Christ.

 

[Eleanor]

Okay. Now I understand you. I had thought someone was applying Numbers 12:8 for proving the rapture but you are the one applying it to discredit scriptures yourself. Here I had thought you were having an angst against Numbers 12:8 when in actuality, you are applying that out of context.

Okay then.. argue with Jesus.

Matthew 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Parables are not prophecy.

Your eschatology is taken from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), it is not taken from parables.

 

[ChristB4us]

Parables are not prophecy.

Your eschatology is taken from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), it is not taken from parables.

Matthew 25:1-13 is a parable of the pre great tribulation rapture and thereby prophetic in nature.

Matthew 25:1-13

 

[Eleanor]

Matthew 25:1-13 is a parable of the pre great tribulation rapture and thereby prophetic in nature.

Matthew 25:1-13

And that is according to your interpretation of prophetic riddle not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), which is in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, and which riddle I interpret differently, and in agreement with that apostolic teaching, following:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33

So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.

Likewise, the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures.

 

[makesends]

Do you not know of the Kingdom of God? It is ALL OVER THE NEW TESTAMENT. Jesus speaks to it. Paul speaks to it. You are shutting Israel out of it. What part of that do you not understand.

And you apparently didn't read the whole post @Eleanor wrote. She doesn't claim there is no Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[armylngst]

And you apparently didn't read the whole post @Eleanor wrote. She doesn't claim there is no Kingdom of Heaven.

So you truly believe that the kingdom of Earth belongs wholly to Satan? Okay. Or do you understand that all Creation is part of the Kingdom, though corrupted. I believe the reason Jesus said that the Kingdom would not come with signs, but that the Kingdom had come is because Jesus, the King was amongst His creation. He never ceased to be King. Even the winds and the waves obeyed Him, not to mention the demons who recognized Him.

 

[Eleanor]

And you apparently didn't read the whole post @Eleanor wrote. She doesn't claim there is no Kingdom of Heaven

The kingdom of God is both temporal now and eternal at the resurrection.

 

[armylngst]

Granted, the burden of Nu 12:5-8 is not the nature of prophecy, rather that is a take-away from God's explanation that while he gives prophecy clearly to Moses, he does not do so to other prophets, but gives it to to them in riddles (dark sayings) which are not spoken clearly as he speaks to Moses.
God states in Nu 12:8 that he gives prophecy in riddles and not clearly.

This is what happens when you raise your personal interpretation above that of the actual text. Read the context:
"Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had taken as a wife (for he had taken a Cushite woman); 2 and they said, “Has Yahweh indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us as well?” And Yahweh heard it. 3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any man who was on the face of the earth.) 4 Suddenly Yahweh said to Moses and Aaron and to Miriam, “You three come out to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. 5 Then Yahweh came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the doorway of the tent, and He called [a]Aaron and Miriam. And then both came forward, 6 and He said,

“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, Yahweh, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth,
Indeed clearly, and not in riddles,
And he beholds the form of Yahweh.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant, against Moses?”
9 So the anger of Yahweh burned against them, and He went away."

The context clearly seals this event to the time in question. This was God's answer to Aaron and Miriam, in support of Moses. If the prophet is among them (the people at that time, in the wilderness), God will only speak to them in a dream, in a vision. It doesn't say anything about riddles here. However, with Moses, He is faithful, and God will speak to Him directly, mouth to mouth, clearly, and without riddles. He beholds the form of Yahweh, in fact, God allowed Moses to see Him, if only His back as He passed by. What is God's response to how Moses stands before God, as one with whom God would directly speak mouth to mouth? Aaron and Mirian, why were you not afraid to speak against him. They spoke against Moses without fear. God asked them WHY? With Moses, so esteemed by God amongst the people, why wouldn't anyone be afraid to approach him?

You are allowing your personal interpretation to change the meaning of the passage, solely in support of what you believe. That is not how one is to interpret scripture. Would I use this in support of eschatology? NOT AT ALL. This passage has its place in the history of the nation of Israel. Through it one can learn more about the nature of God. How does God view the world? How does God view the world in light of Himself. (How dare Aaron and Miriam approach Moses without fear. When you can see that, you will see why the anger of Yahweh burned against them. That is how serious God is when He tells us to fear God, and why scripture says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.)

And those riddles not spoken clearly are the basis of your eschatology, which contradicts authoritative NT apostolic teaching, as previously shown (post #736).

You haven't shown anything except your interpretation of scripture. And you are trying to make that authoritative by claiming that your interpretation is that of the New Testament. However, your beliefs are your own. No one gave you the right to claim that God supports your belief, but no one else's. (God is the writer of scripture, through men. So, if you are wrong, who are you making a liar?)

That is not a statement that they are boasting, that is a warning not to do so.

Actually, it says that this is what they will say. And there are plenty of people today who are saying it. The Catholic church was the loudest.

And that is a statement of the foundational principle of the gospel, which applies to all mankind. salvation is only by faith.

Except, apparently for the Jews, it is only belief/unbelief, right? I mean, he says the Gentile stands where they are by faith, but for the Jew, they were removed for unbelief. Why the difference?

Yes, Paul is warning against it, but he nowhere states that it exists (demonstrated above).
It is plainly a hypothetical statement of Paul regarding what they might say, a form of warning as argument, which you wish to make an actual occurrence.

 

[makesends]

So you truly believe that the kingdom of Earth belongs wholly to Satan? Okay. Or do you understand that all Creation is part of the Kingdom, though corrupted. I believe the reason Jesus said that the Kingdom would not come with signs, but that the Kingdom had come is because Jesus, the King was amongst His creation. He never ceased to be King. Even the winds and the waves obeyed Him, not to mention the demons who recognized Him.

WHAT??? Where do you come to this from what Eleanor or I believe about the Kingdom of God?

 

[Eleanor]

This is what happens when you raise your personal interpretation above that of the actual text. Read the context:

The context clearly seals this event to the time in question.

"If there is a prophet among you," does not seal anything.

This was God's answer to Aaron and Miriam, in support of Moses. If the prophet is among them (the people at that time, in the wilderness), God will only speak to them in a dream, in a vision. It doesn't say anything about riddles here. However, with Moses, He is faithful, and God will speak to Him directly, mouth to mouth, clearly, and without riddles.

Seems it does.

Except, apparently for the Jews, it is only belief/unbelief, right? I mean, he says the Gentile stands where they are by faith, but for the Jew, they were removed for unbelief. Why the difference?

Do you not really understand what is being said there, why the Gentiles are in the tree and faithless Jews are not?

Those in the one tree of God's people are there only by faith in Jesus Christ.
Those not there are so because of no faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[armylngst]

Indeed! It is here now, we are in it! It is everlasting, and there is no other to come.

Authoritative NT apostolic teaching is that the kingdom of God is now (Lk 11:20),
it is invisible and within (Lk 11:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules,
it is everlasting (Lk 1:33), therefore, there is no other kingdom of God,
it was set up at Christ's first coming - "in the time of those kings" (Da 2:40-43); i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43) which conquered the Greek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21). The messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Mt 12:28).

You need to lose this self-righteous "authoritative NT apostolic teaching" bit. Just be forthright and true, and say it is your belief, and that you are usurping the teaching of the New Testament to support it. (I reworded it.) Or, just simply state that it is your understanding. No one will hold that against you. If you are wrong, then you were mistaken. It doesn't make God a liar. However, if you claim that this is the truth from the mouth of God, and you are wrong... Who have you diminished? That is why I don't claim that I have the authoritative understanding of scripture, or in this case, of prophecy. I do believe that a spiritualization of prophecy (allegorization) is uncalled for, in light of how messianic prophecies have worked in the past. However, personally, I am watching and discerning the times. Preterists seem to have given up on that. What have I seen in watching and discerning? The greater possibility that the prophecies actually are literal. Technology rising up to the task of a literal fulfillment. History rising up to the task of a literal fulfillment. Would I not be a fool to ignore that?

The Kingdom of God has always existed. When Jesus came to Earth, the Kingdom came with Him. (For obvious reasons.) The authority of the kingdom travels with the King/Queen. All of creation is part of God's Kingdom. This is why God was able to give dominion over creation to Adam. He had that right because the creation is God's kingdom. He can do with it however He pleases.

 

[armylngst]

WHAT??? Where do you come to this from what Eleanor or I believe about the Kingdom of God?

Do you believe the Kingdom is all of creation or not?

 

[Eleanor]

You need to lose this self-righteous "authoritative NT apostolic teaching" bit. Just be forthright and true, and say it is your belief, and that you are usurping the teaching of the New Testament to support it.

I realize you would rather not have it pointed out that your private interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) is in contradiction of authoritative NT apostolic teaching, so perhaps you can address the teaching of the apostles below and show either how your interpretation of those prophetic riddles is in agreement with their teaching, or how their teaching is wrong:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33

So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.

Likewise, the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures, and not the private interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8).

 

[armylngst]

"If there is a prophet among you," does not seal anything.

It does. You are isolating from context. You cannot properly interpret ANYTHING if you strip its context. Is it so absolutely necessary that your belief be absolutely true that you are willing to remove or add to scripture? The context does not allow for this kind of stretching.

Seems it does.

Do you not really understand what is being said there, why the Gentiles are in the tree and faithless Jews are not?

It is clear. The Gentiles are there in faith, while the Jews are not there in unbelief. Try to understand and explain why the difference.

Those in the one tree of God's people are there only by faith in Jesus Christ.
Those not there are so because of no faith in Jesus Christ.

That isn't what Romans 11 says.

"20 Quite right! They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith."

 

[Eleanor]

It does. You are isolating from context. You cannot properly interpret ANYTHING if you strip its context. Is it so absolutely necessary that your belief be absolutely true that you are willing to remove or add to scripture? The context does not allow for this kind of stretching.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without merit.

It is clear. The Gentiles are there in faith, while the Jews are not there in unbelief. Try to understand and explain why the difference.

A distinction without a difference as far as apostolic teaching is concerned.

That isn't what Romans 11 says.

"20 Quite right! They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith."

Oh, wow. . .and who removes or adds to the Scripture of Ro 11:20?

I smell some dispensational dividing of what God has joined.

 

[makesends]

Do you believe the Kingdom is all of creation or not?

John 3

 

[armylngst]

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without merit.

Just because the context does not support what you say in Numbers, doesn't mean you have to destroy the idea of a biblical context. I believe that is called spite.

A distinction without a difference as far as apostolic teaching is concerned.

I will try to keep this short. The actors:
1. A tree.
2. Natural branches that belong to the tree (Jews)
3. Foreign branches that came from some other tree that we don't talk about. (Gentiles)

Some questions:
1. Do the natural branches cease to be natural branches of the tree, given Romans 11, and not your own beliefs?
2. Do the foreign branches cease to be foreign branches of this tree, given Romans 11, and not your own beliefs?
3. Does the tree change so that the natural branches are no longer natural branches, and the foreign branches become natural branches, according to Romans 11, and not your own belief?
4. Is the tree replaced, or is it the same tree, according to Romans 11, and not your own belief?
5. If the foreign branches remain foreign branches (Romans 11), then that means that the tree is not replaced, correct?
6. Given this whole analogy, what differences would one expect of the natural branches as compared to the foreign branches? One should expect differences, correct? Why else would Paul emphasize natural and foreign branches?

If you have trouble understanding the point, the Jews were the chosen people of God and grew up with God, while the Gentiles came from the world, and the idea of chosen people of God is foreign to them. The church does not replace Israel as Paul specifically states at the beginning of Romans 11, God has not rejected His people Israel. It has not happened. The ironic thing is if you believe that God has rejected His people Israel, you have not apostolic teaching to go to, because that would mean God rejected His apostles, who are a part of the people of Israel. That was Paul's point of saying the reason the Romans can know that God has not rejected His people Israel, is because Paul is one of them, and God has not rejected him. Israel has not ceased being the chosen people of God. That does not mean automatic salvation. It means that He will continue to put up with Israel, through all its obstinancy, until He is ready to finish dealing with them.

I can say all I have said, even with Paul's ending verse that God has sealed up all in disobedience, so that He can have mercy on all. Why? Because I have said more than once that there is a single program; more than one track, but a single program. The goal of the single program? So that He can have mercy on all. Not all at the same time, but over all. When time ends, it won't matter how God did it. We will glory in that He did it... at all.

Oh, wow. . .and who removes or adds to the Scripture of Ro 11:20?

From what I wrote above, you should now know the answer. This is why I keep harping on context. Not just the local context, but the context of all of scripture. You should get the Old Testament being about God and Israel, with the Gentiles shut out, however, one should be able to see, flowing through that context, that the Gentiles are not shut out forever. The mystery of the Old Testament is the church, which is revealed in the New Testament. The New Testament speaks about God's relationship with the Gentiles and the church. However, flowing through all of this is Israel (nation of, as distinct from Jews who believe/accept their Messiah). Just as God's plan for the Gentiles was a mystery in the Old Testament, though hinted at, God's final plan for Israel is hinted at and will be manifested when Christ returns. (Once again, Israel mentioned here are those Jews who are not believers, amongst whom there is a remnant.) There is only one plan, however God has His own method, His own plan for fulfilling it.

I smell some dispensational dividing of what God has joined.

I will leave my military response to this where it should remain. I left that along time ago, and don't seek to force division as this does. I have already clearly stated, I am not a dispensationalist. You should spend time with II Timothy 2:15, that says you should study that you discern what scripture teaches, so you aren't ashamed before God when He asks you what something means. That verse has nothing to do with dividing up scripture into parts, but correctly discerning the truth from non-truth. Granted, our sword will never be as sharp as the sword of Jesus tongue, or the sword of the Spirit, but this is one place we shouldn't fall flat on our face.

Don't get wrapped up in Replacement Theology. If you do, then you don't have an apostolic teaching to lean upon, because Replacement Theology teaches that God rejected Israel, so that means... no apostles.

 

[ChristB4us]

And that is according to your interpretation of prophetic riddle not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), which is in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, and which riddle I interpret differently, and in agreement with that apostolic teaching, following:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33

So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.

Likewise, the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures.

You cite but apply scripture at the expense of other scripture for why you are applying His words wrong. I cannot help you. Only God can.

 

[makesends]

You cite but apply scripture at the expense of other scripture for why you are applying His words wrong. I cannot help you. Only God can.

In other words, you can't refute what she says, so you revert to ad hom and arrogance, disguised as pity.

 

[Eleanor]

Do the natural branches cease to be natural branches of the tree?

Absolutely and until they are in the trunk.
Only those branches in the trunk are the tree.
The cut-off branches on the ground are no longer the tree, and remain such unless they are grafted back in.

It's called botany.