The Rapture

[Eleanor]

You need to lose this self-righteous "authoritative NT apostolic teaching" bit. Just be forthright and true, and say it is your belief, and that you are usurping the teaching of the New Testament to support it. (I reworded it.) Or, just simply state that it is your understanding. No one will hold that against you. If you are wrong, then you were mistaken. It doesn't make God a liar. However, if you claim that this is the truth from the mouth of God, and you are wrong... Who have you diminished? That is why I don't claim that I have the authoritative understanding of scripture, or in this case, of prophecy. I do believe that a spiritualization of prophecy (allegorization) is uncalled for, in light of how messianic prophecies have worked in the past. However, personally, I am watching and discerning the times. Preterists seem to have given up on that. What have I seen in watching and discerning? The greater possibility that the prophecies actually are literal. Technology rising up to the task of a literal fulfillment. History rising up to the task of a literal fulfillment. Would I not be a fool to ignore that?

The Kingdom of God has always existed. When Jesus came to Earth, the Kingdom came with Him. (For obvious reasons.) The authority of the kingdom travels with the King/Queen. All of creation is part of God's Kingdom.

Not according to Jesus.
His kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:36),
it is of the spiritual world, invisible and within (Lk 17:20-21),
it is everlasting (Lk 1:33) and
it is here now (Lk 11:20).

This is why God was able to give dominion over creation to Adam. He had that right because the creation is God's kingdom. He can do with it however He pleases.

According to Jesus, the kingdom of God is not of this world (Jn 18:36).

 

[Eleanor]

You are only proving that you are ignoring scripture by citing it as prophetic riddles and therefore not rightly dividing the word of truth.

"Rightly" dividing prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) has only one rule: their interpretation must be in agreement with apostolic teaching, all of which is authoritative to the church.

The only way you can align your belief as being rightly divided is to apply what those scriptures are talking about that you are grossly ignoring.

"Rightly divided" is according to apostolic teaching.

 

[ChristB4us]

"Rightly" dividing prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) has only one rule: their interpretation must be in agreement with apostolic teaching, all of which is authoritative to the church.

"Rightly divided" is according to apostolic teaching.

@makesends & @Carbon

Feel free to cite apostolic teaching then.

Show the scripture that this is what the apostle believes that the last day is the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[Eleanor]

@makesends & @Carbon

Feel free to cite apostolic teaching then.

Show the scripture that this is what the apostle believes that the last day is the Great White Throne Judgment.

Well, that is the final (one and only) judgment at the end of time as seen in the following apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.

Likewise, the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures.

 

[ChristB4us]

Well, that is the final (one and only) judgment at the end of time as seen in the following apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

Apostolic teachings and what Jesus said are two different things. Yes, I believe the apostles as led by the Holy Spirit are saying the words of Jesus per John 16:13-14 but you keep emphasizing apostolic teaching of John, Paul, & Matthew as what the apostles had written in the N.T.

Matthew & John had written the gospel, but the apostle John also had written the 1 & 2 epistle of John and the Book of Revelation.

You cite Paul's epistle and he has written more than one epistle as I am sure you know that too, but technically, this would be considered apostolic teaching rather than the direct teaching of Jesus Christ Himself as witnesses by His disciples.

So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.

Yet you apply that at the expense of apostolic teaching. Anything contrary in those actual apostolic teaching by Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15th chapter & 1 Thessalonians 4th chapter and John's words in Revelation, you ignore, thus you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Likewise, the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for eternity.

This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.

The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures.

The thing is, you are not applying everything that was taught by the apostles', let alone Jesus Christ, for how you are applying Jesus's words to mean. All you do is disregard any contrary teaching by Jesus's own words or the words of the apostles that does not align with your view of what He had meant by saying the "last day" as if referring to the Great White Throne Judgment.

@makesends Not sure why you are "liking" her comment when it is not of the truth. Do you wish to do that when you do not agree with her about the Great White Throne Judgment is the last day Jesus is talking about for when Christians will be raised from the dead & not before?

 

[civic]

Isaac was the type of the NT sacrifice, and the ram was a type of the OT sacrifice.

Show me from the NT which interprets the OT where Isaac was a type ?

Isaac was not sacrificed the animal was therefor the ram was the type.

Thanks

 

[Eleanor]

That is the final (one and only) judgment at the end of time as seen in the following apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew:
Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).
So the one and only resurrection, rapture, second coming, and final judgment all occur together in the last day.
Likewise, the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for eternity.
This is part of the authoritative NT apostolic teaching with which your interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement.
The teaching of the apostles governs the Scriptures.

Apostolic teachings and what Jesus said are two different things.

Au contraire. . .

Any contradiction between Jesus and his apostles is faulty interpretation.
Both enjoy the same authority of the word of God.

Yes, I believe the apostles as led by the Holy Spirit are saying the words of Jesus per John 16:13-14 but you keep emphasizing apostolic teaching of John, Paul, & Matthew as what the apostles had written in the N.T.

Indeed, as in the Scriptures I've presented above, which include the teachings of Paul.

Matthew & John had written the gospel, but the apostle John also had written the 1 & 2 epistle of John and the Book of Revelation.

Of which all the teaching (didactics), as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddle not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation--mine differing from yours, is authoritative to the church.

You cite Paul's epistle and he has written more than one epistle as I am sure you know that too, but technically, this would be considered apostolic teaching rather than the direct teaching of Jesus Christ Himself as witnesses by His disciples.

A distinction without a Biblical difference regarding its authoritativeness to the church.

It is all--both of Christ and the apostles--equally authoritative teaching from the word of God to the church,

Yet you apply that at the expense of apostolic teaching.

Please Biblically demonstrate what you are asserting.

Anything contrary in those actual apostolic teaching by Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15th chapter & 1 Thessalonians 4th chapter and John's words in Revelation, you ignore, thus you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

First of all, Revelation is not teaching (didactics), it is prophetic riddle not spoken clearly and subject to more than one interpretation, mine differing from yours, and neither mine nor yours being authoritative to the church.

Secondly, there is no contradiction between Jesus and the apostles, and any assertion of such is thereby incorrect interpretation, for the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself in the Scriptures.

The thing is, you are not applying everything that was taught by the apostles', let alone Jesus Christ, for how you are applying Jesus's words to mean.

Please Biblically demonstrate your assertion.

All you do is disregard any contrary teaching by Jesus's own words or the words of the apostles that does not align with your view of what He had meant by saying the "last day" as if referring to the Great White Throne Judgment.

However, that is rather plain teaching in the Scriptures I've presented at the top of this post, wherein Jesus presents one judgment, of all mankind, the sheep and the goats, at the end of time, which allows for no other judgment. Any other judgment from interpretation of prophetic riddles is contrary to Jesus' teaching.

 

[Eleanor]

Show me from the NT which interprets the OT where Isaac was a type ?

Show me from the NT where the sacrifices of the OT were a type of Jesus' sacrifice.

Isaac was not sacrificed the animal was therefor the ram was the type.

The father willing to sacrifice his own son is a type, where you see it or not.

 

[civic]

Show me from the NT where the sacrifices of the OT were a type of Jesus' sacrifice.

The father willing to sacrifice his own son is a type, where you see it or not.

The whole book of Hebrews

 

[Carbon]

Show me from the NT where the sacrifices of the OT were a type of Jesus' sacrifice.

That's an easy one. Christ is the central figure of scripture. Al scripture points to him, so to show what in the OT is a type and shadow is quite easy.

The father willing to sacrifice his own son is a type, where you see it or not.

You talking about Abraham and Issac?

 

[ChristB4us]

Au contraire. . .

Any contradiction between Jesus and his apostles is faulty interpretation.
Both enjoy the same authority of the word of God.

I knew you would misunderstood me.

Is Jesus Christ an apostle? But you are referring to apostolic teaching by His words mostly and one reference to Paul's words an actual apostle.

They do not contradict each other but I am addressing how you apply apostolic teaching to mean.

And you are not including every message Jesus & His disciples has taught because you dismiss them as prophetic riddles.

So our discussion is at an impasse.

 

[Eleanor]

I knew you would misunderstood me.

Is Jesus Christ an apostle? But you are referring to apostolic teaching by His words mostly and one reference to Paul's words an actual apostle.

Okay, I think I see what you are saying.

The apostles wrote the Scriptures, not Jesus.
I refer to what they wrote, including the gospels, as apostolic teaching, for it comes from them, because Jesus never wrote anything.

They do not contradict each other but I am addressing how you apply apostolic teaching to mean.

Which incorrectness of mine you only assert, you do not Biblically demonstrate.

And you are not including every message Jesus & His disciples has taught because you dismiss them as prophetic riddles.

Jesus gave very little prophecy, which is what is meant by prophetic riddle, and it was in regard to the end.

So our discussion is at an impasse.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus gave very little prophecy, which is what is meant by prophetic riddle, and it was in regard to the end.

He gave quite a bit of prophesy, but maybe you have a hard time seeing it.

Revelation 19th Chapter

Revelation 19:1-10 testify of the Marriage Supper in Heaven BEFORE in verses 11-21 the Heaven "open" again for when He returns as the King of kings to do battle with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:1-5

Zechariah 14:1-5 testifies to Him touching down on the Mount of Olives to do this when coming back with the saints aka the pre great tribulation saints.

Revelation 20th Chapter

Then in Revelation 20:1-6 after the defeat of the world's armies, Jesus puts Satan in the pit for a thousand years before that resurrection after the great tribulation which was to happen first before the rest of the dead are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment.

That means Jesus is not meeting those saints resurrected after the great tribulation in the air.

So I see the last day in according to the order that is set by the Lord as Christ the firstfruits as plural as at the pre great tribulation rapture event and those that be Christ's at His coming... as that King of kings after the great tribulation and then later on the Great white Throne Judgment when you read what happens after Satan is loose from the pit after a thousand years to stage a last rebellion for a small season in verses 7-15.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul was not speaking in a prophetic riddle above and so that is why you are not applying everything that is written in His words for this issue.

 

[Eleanor]

He gave quite a bit of prophesy, but maybe you have a hard time seeing it.

Revelation 19th Chapter

Revelation 19:1-10 testify of the Marriage Supper in Heaven BEFORE in verses 11-21 the Heaven "open" again for when He returns as the King of kings to do battle with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:1-5

Zechariah 14:1-5 testifies to Him touching down on the Mount of Olives to do this when coming back with the saints aka the pre great tribulation saints.

Revelation 20th Chapter

Then in Revelation 20:1-6 after the defeat of the world's armies, Jesus puts Satan in the pit for a thousand years before that resurrection after the great tribulation which was to happen first before the rest of the dead are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment.

That means Jesus is not meeting those saints resurrected after the great tribulation in the air.

So I see the last day in according to the order that is set by the Lord as Christ the firstfruits as plural as at the pre great tribulation rapture event and those that be Christ's at His coming... as that King of kings after the great tribulation and then later on the Great white Throne Judgment when you read what happens after Satan is loose from the pit after a thousand years to stage a last rebellion for a small season in verses 7-15.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul was not speaking in a prophetic riddle above and so that is why you are not applying everything that is written in His words for this issue.

I don't take my doctrine from prohetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, mine not being the same as yours.

 

[Eleanor]

The whole book of Hebrews

Where do you find the word "type?"

 

[Eleanor]

That's an easy one. Christ is the central figure of scripture. Al scripture points to him, so to show what in the OT is a type and shadow is quite easy.

You talking about Abraham and Issac?

Yes, @civic requires that the NT present Isaac as a type before he can be seen as such.

 

[civic]

Where do you find the word "type?"

Strong's Concordance
tupos: a figure, model, type
Original Word: τύπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: tupos
Phonetic Spelling: (too'-pos)
Definition: typically
Usage: (originally: the mark of a blow, then a stamp struck by a die), (a) a figure; a copy, image, (b) a pattern, model, (c) a type, prefiguring something or somebody.

Same word used in Romans 5:14 is used in Hebrews 8:5 as type/pattern

Romans 5:14
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Hebrews 8
Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

 

[Eleanor]

duplicate

 

[Eleanor]

Strong's Concordance
tupos: a figure, model, type
Original Word: τύπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: tupos
Phonetic Spelling: (too'-pos)
Definition: typically
Usage: (originally: the mark of a blow, then a stamp struck by a die), (a) a figure; a copy, image, (b) a pattern, model, (c) a type, prefiguring something or somebody.

Same word used in Romans 5:14 is used in Hebrews 8:5 as type/pattern

Romans 5:14
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Hebrews 8
Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises

Where do you find the word "type" in the book of Hebrews?

Yet it presents types.

 

[civic]

Yes, @civic requires that the NT present Isaac as a type before he can be seen as such.

The N.T. lets one know when an OT person, place or thing is a type, shadow,figure of Christ