The Rapture

[Carbon]

The N.T. lets one know when an OT person, place or thing is a type, shadow,figure of Christ

Since the NT is the fulfillment, of course. Since scripture is Christ centric, the Old Testament is a type and shadow of him. Knowing what the connections are is the issue because we see through a glass dimly.

 

[ChristB4us]

I don't take my doctrine from prohetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, mine not being the same as yours.

Reads to me as plainly spoken for what is to occur; there is nothing about it to be seen as a prophetic riddle.

Unless you wish to address why those references are to be considered as a prophetic riddle other than it does not align with how you are applying the last day to mean, then maybe you should consider that the verse you are applying is actually a prophetic riddle itself.

Since scripture testifies to an order to these resurrections, then as the reader reads His words that you are applying to mean has to be done in alignment in that because there are three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of Heaven per Matthew 13:33 then Christ the firstfruits as being of the O.T. & N.T. disciples are the firstfruits whereas those not found abiding in Him are left behind to die but resurrected after the great tribulation before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White Throne Judgment for when Satan and death and hell is cast into the lake of fire along with all whose name is not written in the Book of Life.

That third harvest are those that remain loyal to Jesus after Satan is loose from the pit after a thousand years to stage a last rebellion for a small season in raising up an army as many as the sand of the sea Revelation 20:8 for when Satan is defeated for the last time & cast into the lake of fire.

The purpose? To show that in spite of Christ ruling as the King of kings, and living in a perfect world, the new generations raised up in that 1000 year reign can still sin against the Lord by not believing His words and thereby believing the lies of the devil.

So sinners and Christians that doubt, because they blame God for everything bad in the world, should know the source for why things are bad in this world; not believing God and His words.

So when Christ completes the kingdom of Heaven to give it back to the Father in the end, it is to answer all questions that would have been put forth to God about life apart from His words. Once death is put in the lake of fire, thus death is conquered and so the generations remaining loyal to Christ and those resurrected after the great tribulation, cannot die any more. Neither can any of the living things in creation die any more as this will signify that sin will never separate His people nor His creation from God ever again.

 

[Wordsmith]

Thank you for sharing although I still disagree with you.

@makesends

Do you agree with her line of reasoning and application or not? I sure do not.

Then with scripture refute what she says. It’s ok to disagree just explain why.

 

[Wordsmith]

I expect that those "Raptured" will simply drop dead in place, and their Spirits will be Heaven bound (what would God do with all those obsolete bodies anyway???).

We shall be changed not dropped to the ground. We will be changed to a new and glorified body like Jesus currently has.

 

[ChristB4us]

Then with scripture refute what she says. It’s ok to disagree just explain why.

I did in post #794 Here it is again. @Eleanor

Do you believe that Jesus will descend with a shout from Heaven in rapture His saints into the air as stated clearly & plainly in verses 16-17?

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you believe that there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as stated after Satan is in the pit for a thousand years?

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Do you believe that after that thousand year reign, Satan will be loose from the pit to stage a last rebellion for a small season before being defeated for the last time & cast into the lake of fire from when the Great White Throne Judgment shall commence?

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now if you believe all of these things, then how can Jesus be meeting the saints in the air, let alone descending from Heaven with a shout if He is already on earth as the King of kings at the Great White Throne Judgment and has been since His thousand year reign on earth began?

 

[Wordsmith]

Is Jesus Christ an apostle?

Yes!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

 

[Eleanor]

Reads to me as plainly spoken for what is to occur; there is nothing about it to be seen as a prophetic riddle.
Unless you wish to address why those references are to be considered as a prophetic riddle other than it does not align with how you are applying the last day to mean, then maybe you should consider that the verse you are applying is actually a prophetic riddle itself.

I measure all by NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.

Since scripture testifies to an order to these resurrections.
Rev 19
Revelation 19:1-10 testify of the Marriage Supper in Heaven BEFORE in verses 11-21 the Heaven "open" again for when He returns as the King of kings to do battle with the world's armies marching against Jerusalem.

Zec 14:1-5
Zechariah 14:1-5 testifies to Him touching down on the Mount of Olives to do this when coming back with the saints aka the pre great tribulation saints.

Your interpretation of those riddles (Nu 12:8) is contrary to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, where

Peter states in Ac 3:21 that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God tor restore everything" which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness,
which he tells us about in 2 Pe 3:19-13; and
which John tells us about in Rev 21:1-4, where there is no death because it is eternity; and
which Isaiah tells us about in Isa 65:17ff, 66:22 (cf Mt 19:28, Ro 8:20-23, 1 Co 15:51-55, Php 3:20-21, Col 3:4, 2 Th 1:10, 1 Jn 3:2).
And note that Peter also states there is no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things (2 Pe 3:13) at the end of time (Rev 21:1-4).
Heb 9:27-28 likewise teaches that there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between. Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgment he will "bring salvation;" i.e., the fulfillment of salvation in all its glory.

(con't. below)

 

[Eleanor]

(con't. from above)

And also note that in Heb 9:27-28 Jesus brings salvation when he appears,
and in 1 Pe 1:5, 13 Jesus brings salvation when he is revealed,
so that his appearing and his revealing are the same thing.; i.e., his coming in judgment (Heb 9:27-28, 2 Th 1:6-10), and not two separate events.
Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment, because they are one and the same event.

That means Jesus is not meeting those saints resurrected after the great tribulation in the air.

It means no such thing in light of the above apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, where there is only one second coming, there is no third or fourth coming.

Rev 20:1-6:
Then in Revelation 20:1-6 after the defeat of the world's armies, Jesus puts Satan in the pit for a years before that resurrection after the great tribulation

And as there are not two second comings, so there are not two resurrections.
For Jesus presents one, and only one, resurrection of all mankind (sheep and goats) at the end of time, which allows for no other resurrection in addition to it.

It was to happen first before the rest of the dead are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment.

In the context of 1 Th 4:16-17, those who will be raised "first" refers to the believers who have died since the ascension of Jesus, and who will not thereby miss the rapture, because they will be raised first and then raptured together with the believers who are still living.
It's not about some resurrection prior to the one and only resurrection in the last day, according to apostolic teaching (above), which is authoritative to the church.

So I see the last day in according to the order that is set by the Lord as Christ the firstfruits as plural as at the pre great tribulation rapture event and those that be Christ's at His coming.

And once again, what you "see" is contrary to apostolic teaching of Jesus being the only firstfruits of the resurrection, with the remainder of the harvest at his second coming and resurrection (1 Co 15:22-23) of all mankind (sheep and goats).

 

[ChristB4us]

Yes!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Well then I stand corrected by the scriptures. I do not know why I consider a disciple and apostle as in the same category as following Jesus.

Thank you.

 

[makesends]

In the context of 1 Th 4:16-17, those who will be raised "first" refers to the believers who have died since the ascension of Jesus, and who will not thereby miss the rapture, because they will be raised first and then raptured together with the believers who are still living.
It's not about some resurrection prior to the one and only resurrection in the last day, according to apostolic teaching (above), which is authoritative to the church.

Agreed.

This same sort of language is used where he says, (Romans 1:16) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (my emphasis). He's not saying here that there are two gospels, nor is he even teaching that the Gospel was intended for the Jew more than for the Greek.

 

[ChristB4us]

I measure all by NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.

Your interpretation of those riddles (Nu 12:8) is contrary to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, where

Peter states in Ac 3:21 that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God tor restore everything" which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness,

The appearing of the Bridegroom for the abiding bride of Christ for the Marriage Supper is not when He will restore all things.

which he tells us about in 2 Pe 3:19-13; and
which John tells us about in Rev 21:1-4, where there is no death because it is eternity; and
which Isaiah tells us about in Isa 65:17ff, 66:22 (cf Mt 19:28, Ro 8:20-23, 1 Co 15:51-55, Php 3:20-21, Col 3:4, 2 Th 1:10, 1 Jn 3:2).
And note that Peter also states there is no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things (2 Pe 3:13) at the end of time (Rev 21:1-4).
Heb 9:27-28 likewise teaches that there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming in judgment, for Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge, and not in between. Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, at which judgment he will "bring salvation;" i.e., the fulfillment of salvation in all its glory.

(con't. below)

When He comes as the King of kings is when He will restore all things for when that new heaven and the new earth is done.

 

[ChristB4us]

(con't. from above)

And also note that in Heb 9:27-28 Jesus brings salvation when he appears,
and in 1 Pe 1:5, 13 Jesus brings salvation when he is revealed,
so that his appearing and his revealing are the same thing.; i.e., his coming in judgment (Heb 9:27-28, 2 Th 1:6-10), and not two separate events.
Therefore, there can be no appearing for the rapture separate from his revealing at the judgment, because they are one and the same event.

It means no such thing in light of the above apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, where there is only one second coming, there is no third or fourth coming.

And as there are not two second comings, so there are not two resurrections.
For Jesus presents one, and only one, resurrection of all mankind (sheep and goats) at the end of time, which allows for no other resurrection in addition to it.

In the context of 1 Th 4:16-17, those who will be raised "first" refers to the believers who have died since the ascension of Jesus, and who will not thereby miss the rapture, because they will be raised first and then raptured together with the believers who are still living.
It's not about some resurrection prior to the one and only resurrection in the last day, according to apostolic teaching (above), which is authoritative to the church.

And once again, what you "see" is contrary to apostolic teaching of Jesus being the only firstfruits of the resurrection, with the remainder of the harvest at his second coming and resurrection (1 Co 15:22-23) of all mankind (sheep and goats).

Missing the forest for all the trees.

No point in reminding you of the scriptures that testifies otherwise as you just dismiss them as prophetic riddles for why you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Eleanor]

The appearing of the Bridegroom for the abiding bride of Christ for the Marriage Supper is not when He will restore all things.

When He comes as the King of kings is when He will restore all things for when that new heaven and the new earth is done.

Which, according to NT apostolic teaching, is at the one and only second coming at the end of time.

The "last day" is the end of time.

Missing the forest for all the trees.

No point in reminding you of the scriptures that testifies otherwise as you just dismiss them as prophetic riddles for why you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Your interpretation, which is contrary to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, dismisses itself as not rightly dividing the word of truth.
I take my doctrine from apostolic teaching, not from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoke clearly (Nu 12:8).
And you should do the same. There's a price to be paid for that much contradiction of authoritative apostolic teaching[/U in one's theology.

Your response falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

 

[makesends]

ChristB4us said:
Is Jesus Christ an apostle?

Wordsmith said:
Yes!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Well then I stand corrected by the scriptures. I do not know why I consider a disciple and apostle as in the same category as following Jesus.
Thank you.

The fact the Greek word "apostolos" means the same thing for both does not mean there is no difference between the one and the other use. In its raw form it only means "messenger, envoy", literally, "person sent forth".

But maybe more to the point, Jesus as Apostle, if at all in the same category as the disciples, is only as is dealt with in the context. While fully human as they are, and with [at least] their degree of authority, yet he (this Apostle and High Priest) alone is able to break the power of death. Thus, no mere human apostle and high priest. So, no, not the same thing as what we refer to as "the Apostles" nor "High Priest". Those are references to his service to God, for us.

 

[ChristB4us]

Agreed.

This same sort of language is used where he says, (Romans 1:16) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (my emphasis). He's not saying here that there are two gospels, nor is he even teaching that the Gospel was intended for the Jew more than for the Greek.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Three harvests makes up the whole of the kingdom of Heaven before the Son gives it back to the Father as completed.

Christ as the Bridegroom coming for the firstfruits are the O.T. saints & the N.T. disciples abiding in Him at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Then they that be Christ's at His coming as the King of kings.

Then you have that generation following those that got resurrected after the great tribulation that will be loyal to Christ after Satan is released from the pit after a thousand years to stage a last rebellion for a small season in spite of how the devil will be successful in drawing many after him to attack the City of New Jerusalem. Those loyal to Christ out of that coming generation is the third harvest.

Then after Satan is defeated for the last time, Satan is cast into the lake of fire along with death & hell and anyone not found written in the Book of Life when the rest of the dead are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment.

That is when death is defeated and Jesus hands the completed Kingdom of Heaven back to the Father with those 3 harvests within.

 

[ChristB4us]

Which, according to NT apostolic teaching, is at the one and only second coming at the end of time.

The "last day" is the end of time.


Your interpretation, which is contrary to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, dismisses itself as not rightly dividing the word of truth.
I take my doctrine from apostolic teaching, not from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoke clearly (Nu 12:8).
And you should do the same. There's a price to be paid for that much contradiction of authoritative apostolic teaching[/U in one's theology.

Your response falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

Until you rightly divide the word of truth in the scriptures I am using, you are ignoring scripture that proves you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Three harvests makes up the whole of the kingdom of Heaven before the Son gives it back to the Father as completed.

Christ as the Bridegroom coming for the firstfruits are the O.T. saints & the N.T. disciples abiding in Him at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Then they that be Christ's at His coming as the King of kings.

Then you have that generation following those that got resurrected after the great tribulation that will be loyal to Christ after Satan is released from the pit after a thousand years to stage a last rebellion for a small season in spite of how the devil will be successful in drawing many after him to attack the City of New Jerusalem. Those loyal to Christ out of that coming generation is the third harvest.

Then after Satan is defeated for the last time, Satan is cast into the lake of fire along with death & hell and anyone not found written in the Book of Life when the rest of the dead are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment.

That is when death is defeated and Jesus hands the completed Kingdom of Heaven back to the Father with those 3 harvests within.

 

[ChristB4us]

ChristB4us said:
Is Jesus Christ an apostle?

Wordsmith said:
Yes!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;



The fact the Greek word "apostolos" means the same thing for both does not mean there is no difference between the one and the other use. In its raw form it only means "messenger, envoy", literally, "person sent forth".

But maybe more to the point, Jesus as Apostle, if at all in the same category as the disciples, is only as is dealt with in the context. While fully human as they are, and with [at least] their degree of authority, yet he (this Apostle and High Priest) alone is able to break the power of death. Thus, no mere human apostle and high priest. So, no, not the same thing as what we refer to as "the Apostles" nor "High Priest". Those are references to his service to God, for us.

Chewing over your post, I do recall another poster citing apostle meaning sent forth and so Jesus was sent as His disciples were sent. Before, I had only applied it to Jesus sending His disciples including Paul as sent forth, but God the Father & His Spirit did send God Our Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

So I reckon apostle meant one sent forth by God and that has to include Jesus Christ too. So I learned something new today when all the information comes together.

 

[Wordsmith]

Well then I stand corrected by the scriptures. I

We still have work to do on that!

 

[Wordsmith]

ChristB4us said:
Is Jesus Christ an apostle?

Wordsmith said:
Yes!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;



The fact the Greek word "apostolos" means the same thing for both does not mean there is no difference between the one and the other use. In its raw form it only means "messenger, envoy", literally, "person sent forth".

But maybe more to the point, Jesus as Apostle, if at all in the same category as the disciples, is only as is dealt with in the context. While fully human as they are, and with [at least] their degree of authority, yet he (this Apostle and High Priest) alone is able to break the power of death. Thus, no mere human apostle and high priest. So, no, not the same thing as what we refer to as "the Apostles" nor "High Priest". Those are references to his service to God, for us.

I never said or implied they were the same. I simply answered a question with scripture.

 

[makesends]

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Three harvests makes up the whole of the kingdom of Heaven before the Son gives it back to the Father as completed.

Sorry for interrupting. Where are these three harvests mentioned?

Christ as the Bridegroom coming for the firstfruits are the O.T. saints & the N.T. disciples abiding in Him at the pre great tribulation rapture event.

Sorry for throwing off your groove, here, but, 'Christ (subject) are the OT saints and NT disciples (predicate)'...? I'm having a bit of trouble following your sentence.

But even if you are saying, "Christ coming for the firstfruits [which are] the OT saints and NT disciples", that's not what 1 Corinthians 15:23 says in your quote. Looks to me a bit like you are changing the text. But maybe you meant to quote a different version.

Then they that be Christ's at His coming as the King of kings.

Then you have that generation following those that got resurrected after the great tribulation that will be loyal to Christ after Satan is released from the pit after a thousand years to stage a last rebellion for a small season in spite of how the devil will be successful in drawing many after him to attack the City of New Jerusalem. Those loyal to Christ out of that coming generation is the third harvest.

Then after Satan is defeated for the last time, Satan is cast into the lake of fire along with death & hell and anyone not found written in the Book of Life when the rest of the dead are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment.

That is when death is defeated and Jesus hands the completed Kingdom of Heaven back to the Father with those 3 harvests within.

Show me again the three harvests mentioned in the verses you quoted. I don't see it.