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New Birth; a Necessity?

I'm inclined to say they co-occur at conversion, but keep in mind we are justified by several things, one of which is a gifted faith that begets faithfulness.
what 'other things' are we justified?
 
[By] what 'other things' are we justified?
If you have an e-version of the Bible the search takes seconds.

Searching "justified by" in the NT results in ten mentions in 9 verses. Four of them are negatives, we are NOT justified by works or the Law. Of the remaining 8 examples, one of them says we are justified by grace (Tit. 3:7) and one of them says we are justified by works, not just faith (Jms. 2:24). The remaining four mentions state "justified by faith" (Rom. 3:28 & 5:1; Gal. 2:16 & 3:24; but there is some controversy pertaining to one of them because some translations say, "faith of Christ," while the most of the modern versions say, "faith in Christ" and a transliteration of the Greek results in "faith from Christ."

For the purposes of this post it is clear justification by faith is the overwhelming standard both normatively and statistically. The two or three exceptions are statistical outliers. Their normative status can be considered in different ways or various degrees but I, personally, read them as cohesive parts of the whole, not disparate statements intended to conflict with one another.

A New Testament search of only the word "justified" complicates things because the word is used 24 times and the first states,

Matthew 12:33-37
Either make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Words both justify and condemn! 😮 But that particular verse is worded as a "will be" (future) and not an already existing justification. It is predominantly eschatological in nature. The next mention is in the comparison made between the humble, repentant tax collector and the prideful, self-righteous and condescending Pharisee so I will temporarily pass that example as an argument of extremes. The third mention is in Romans 2.

Romans 2:12-13
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Doers of the Law will be justified :unsure:. Wait. What? Did not Paul say four times we are NOT justified by works or the Law? Yes, he did. Paul juxtaposed the "works of the Law" against "a law of faith" by which any boast in the Law was excluded, BUT this law of faith that excluded boasting in one's works of the Law did not nullify the Law but established it 🤨. Paul spent six chapters explaining it 😒.

Most of the 24 mentions of justification fall within the examples or categories listed above, but two examples stand out apart from those categories. One is Romans 5:9 which states we are justified by the blood of Christ. Romans 8:30 implies we are justified by God because God is repeatedly stated as the one doing the various actions listed (calling, predestining, sanctifying, justifying, etc.).
  • Justified (eschatologically) by one's words
  • Justified by God
  • Justified by faith in Christ
  • justified by faith of or from Christ
  • justified by grace
  • justified by faith that are evidenced by works (or what we might call faith begetting faithfulness).
Scripture states six "justified by," or five if the Gal. 2:16 text is treated as "in" and not "of" or "from".



However, for the purposes of this post the main point I'd like to make is it does not take very long to find and read ALL mentions of justification. They can all be covered in one (admittedly lengthy) post. Because of that fact all the denominational/doctrinal biases can also be recognized (and separated and excluded), along with all the selective appeals to scripture that either emphasize one verse over another or pit one against another. In the age of computers there is no warrant for the kind of disagreement common on that topic (if we stick first and foremost to whole scripture) 😇.

Let's not forget how we (you and I) got to this point. You asked how the new birth and justification interrelate and I suggested they were co-occurring. Those God regenerates or births anew from above (gennethe anothen) He also justifies. Assuming justification is understood as a legal term pertaining to one's ability to stand before the Judge and plead one's case,* then there is no regenerate person that is not also justified, and there is no justified person that is not also regenerate. Regeneration is not said to cause justification, nor is the reverse said to be so. God regenerates and God justifies. God does a bunch of stuff (as the Romans 8:30 list indicates) and one of them is justification. Sometimes the many things God does are causally related, but most are correlates, not causes. When it comes to the new birth and justification, I view them as correlates. Every person born anew by God also has an ability to stand before God and plead his/her case because that person is also covered by the blood of Christ shed at Calvary. In that condition there is NOW no condemnation.

To stand before God apart from that covering is instant incineration 😱 (or something equally unimaginable).











*we have several examples of this recently in the news: the federal government could not impeach the POTUS once he's left office because they have no standing to do so, or a state may not exclude a candidate from a ballot in a national election because they have no standing to do so - because they've either violated the candidates due process OR cannot themselves decide an election for the whole country. A person or group must have grounds for a case before the case can be presented. Cases without grounds for presentation never see the insides of a courtroom.
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To stand before God apart from that covering is instant incineration 😱 (or something equally unimaginable).
So in answering the OP, you would say the 'new birth is a necessity'!?
 
So in answering the OP, you would say the 'new birth is a necessity'!?
Post #2.

For the record: I do not like it when I am asked questions I have already answered, especially when the answer was provided directly to the person asking for the second (or third, or fourth time, etc.). I consider it evidence the person is not genuinely "in" the conversation and the poster has some unstated agenda other than cogent conversation. It is an indication there's no interest in what is posted, or an indication then posts aren't read or read thoroughly - or if read then dismissed.

I do not know how the question,
Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
than to say, "I do not believe so." No, I do not believe a person can have eternal life if not born again (born anew from above = gennethe anothen).
 
For the record: I do not like it when I am asked questions I have already answered, especially when the answer was provided directly to the person asking for the second (or third, or fourth time, etc.). I consider it evidence the person is not genuinely "in" the conversation and the poster has some unstated agenda other than cogent conversation. It is an indication there's no interest in what is posted, or an indication then posts aren't read or read thoroughly - or if read then dismissed
My response would be in my signature. I can assure you l have no agenda, it's just I have a hard time comprehending long scholastic type tomes. Perhaps I am a victim of post modernism or too many drug trips in my BC days have marred my ability to comprehensively cogitate.
 
My response would be in my signature. I can assure you l have no agenda, it's just I have a hard time comprehending long scholastic type tomes. Perhaps I am a victim of post modernism or too many drug trips in my BC days have marred my ability to comprehensively cogitate.
The question asked has been answered. That answer has also been elaborated upon op-relevantly. Is there more?
 
The question asked has been answered. That answer has also been elaborated upon op-relevantly. Is there more?
All opinions are welcomed.
 
Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Since that's a controversial issue, MY PERSONAL OPINION is that HUMANS HAVE ETERNAL EXISTENCE regardless of their "Spiritual condition". However, their eternal destination, if they're NOT SAVED (Born again) will be the "Lake of FIRE", and not heaven.
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.
No
 
That's dependent on the opinion makers :cool:.
It's your op. Presumably the op was posted with some intent to discuss either the question itself or the answers to the question. Is that not the case? Was the op posted without any intent to discuss the answers?
 
Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
No
How much 'surrender' must they do until they are born again??
The question is a red herring. Scripture states every individual *other than Jesus) has sinned and is thereby dead in sin. Whether ontologically factual or metaphorically allegorical the meaning of dead is dead, and dead people do not possess any ability to "surrender." The question itself is, therefore, misguided. One analogy commonly used to illustrate the point is that of an unconscious person at risk of dying being asked if they would like to be resuscitated. They are pumping blood and breathing air, and they otherwise have an ability to think, feel, and will but those faculties are not functioning in the unconscious state. Asking a person to concede to resuscitation is meaningless.
When one is born again, is there any change of nature in a person on the way to eternal life?
Yes. There are many changes that occur when a person is born anew from above. Some of the changes can be listed directly from what is stated in the Bible, while others can be inferred from what is stated to be the sinfully dead and enslaved condition. For example, conditions like "regenerate," saved," "justified," "sanctified," and "elect" are all conditions the unregenerate, not-born-again sinfully dead and enslaved individual lacks. Another would be that of slavery. The (only) two options stated in scripture are slavery to sin or slavery to righteousness. Some of the inferred changes might be, for example, the fact that John 3:3 is further clarified in verse 5 to say a person must be born of Spirit not just flesh. Another inference can be made from Roman 8's the mind of flesh is hostile to God and unable to please God while the mind of flesh is life and, therefore, presumably able to please God. Those denying God's existence and power are said to think futilely. The new birth, therefore, implies the individual can think the opposite of futilely; fruitfully or effective.
Perhaps Nicodemus would have figured out what the Kingdom was referring to if he had been born from above.
Relevance?

Presumably, the inquiry of this op is built on John 3:3.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The verse in question plainly states the kingdom cannot be seen. Nothing more. It does not say that person understands the kingdom, has entered the kingdom, is a member of the kingdom, etc. The verse is, in fact, a conditional statement worded in the negative. It is not an explicit affirmation of anything! The implication is that the kingdom can be seen if a person is born anew from above, but that's not what is actually stated.
Do you believe OT saints were born again?
Yes, but that is an inference based on the fact a person cannot see the kingdom without being born anew from above and the facts 1) some saw the kingdom, 2) some had the gospel preached to them, and 3) all the OT people commended for their faith in Hebrews 11 are said to be made perfect in us.
When do you think it started?
When do I think God started birthing people anew from above? Since scripture is silent on the matter any answer anyone might give will be speculative to one degree or another, but I will venture to say it started with Genesis 4:26.
With Adam? Enoch? Abraham?
Seth

I would venture to say Seth's birth itself is a foreshadowing of the new birth of the Spirit from above.

Genesis 4:25-26
Adam had relations with his wife again; and she gave birth to a son, and named him Seth, for, she said, "God has appointed me another offspring in place of Abel, for Cain killed him." To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD.
As I understand it. it places the person into the kingdom, not just 'helps him see the kingdom'....

Colossians 1:13 ESV
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
What makes you think Colossians 1:13 is commensurate (solely) of John 3:3,5 and not some other aspect of conversion like the purchase (1 Cor. 6:20), sanctification (Heb. 10:10) or justification (Rom. 5:9)? I'm not saying that is incorrect; I'd just like to read the rationale for that statement and the use of Colossians 1:13 to support it.
 
Having Dispensational leanings, most likely puts me in that 'low information' camp. lol.
How does Dispensationalism differ from any other theology in its view of "born again," born anew from above, or "gennethe anothen"?
 
So was Nebuchadnezzar born again because he prophesied?
Hi thanks

Not any more that Balaams ass the apostle a who prophesied .

Ass unclean to represent unredeemed must be redeemed by lamb clean animal God can use a unbeliever (Ass) just as easily as a (lamb) Jesus the Son of man.

Exodus 13:13 And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.

Numbers 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

A gospel parable above . . God not served by the dying hands of mankind

I would think it is that way no matter where a person goes "there he is"we cannot; hide form self surrly not from God . .God is drawing some other He is not we preach He does all the teaching. and brings to our memory the previous things taught He is a watching loving Father

Jerimiah 1:11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree. Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.

Job 23 inspired from above declared "thou perform that which you appoint to us the powerless ones the water of your word softens our new born again hearts .

Used in the new testament as with Balaam's Ass to represent unredeemed. Jesus whom the Father redeemed sat on the ass (beast of burden) again to outwardly demonstrate God is not served by the hand of dying mankind in any way or form

John 12:14-16King James Version14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

That they the apostles had done these things unto him. like Balaam whippings the ass three times .until it crushed his heel
 
When one is born again, is there any change of nature in a person on the way to eternal life?
Since a "Born Again" person is indwelled by the Holy Spirit, there WILL MUST BE A CHANGE.

As Spurgeon said: A FAITH that doesn't CHANGE a person, won't SAVE THEM either.
 
Maybe that's because 'surrender' is a man made concept. I fail to find it in Scripture.
:unsure: I just searched, and neither can I find the term used in any soteriologically relevant sense.
I do find 'yield' but that is used in a military sense of 'present your bodies for service'.
It is also used for a vine yielding fruit, the natural design function of a plant to produce fruit. That goes all the way back to Genesis 1:11-12, where each plant brings forth (yields) fruit according to its kind (rather than out of volition).
 
:unsure: I just searched, and neither can I find the term used in any soteriologically relevant sense.
True, it's just misused when it comes to sanctification.
It is also used for a vine yielding fruit, the natural design function of a plant to produce fruit. That goes all the way back to Genesis 1:11-12, where each plant brings forth (yields) fruit according to its kind (rather than out of volition).
True again and it's a good thing we are not vines.
 
than to say, "I do not believe so." No, I do not believe a person can have eternal life if not born again (born anew from above = gennethe anothen).
Ἄνωθεν γεννηθῆναι does not mean, as Meyer and others assert, “being born from above.” It is certainly true that ἄνωθεν can have this local meaning, but the context shows that this is not the case here. After all, in John 3:4 ἄνωθεν is replaced by δεύτερον, “for the second time.” And Nicodemus is not surprised by the fact that this birth must come from above, but by the fact that it must take place a second time. If he had thought “from above,” he could not have posed the question, “Can someone enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” “Again,” however, has the deeper meaning “anew” here, so what is required is an absolute beginning. Not that half of what is connected with generation or birth must be repeated, but man must again undergo being born anew.
Compare Galatians 4:9: “which you want to serve again [πάλιν] anew [ἄνωθεν].”


Vos, Geerhardus, Reformed Dogmatics V4 Soteriology chp2:7.ii
 
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