New Birth; a Necessity?

[Carbon]

I do not believe so.

You can be sure of the answer, no.

 

[Josheb]

Ἄνωθεν γεννηθῆναι does not mean, as Meyer and others assert, “being born from above.” It is certainly true that ἄνωθεν can have this local meaning, but the context shows that this is not the case here. After all, in John 3:4 ἄνωθεν is replaced by δεύτερον, “for the second time.” And Nicodemus is not surprised by the fact that this birth must come from above, but by the fact that it must take place a second time. If he had thought “from above,” he could not have posed the question, “Can someone enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” “Again,” however, has the deeper meaning “anew” here, so what is required is an absolute beginning. Not that half of what is connected with generation or birth must be repeated, but man must again undergo being born anew.
Compare Galatians 4:9: “which you want to serve again [πάλιν] anew [ἄνωθεν].”


Vos, Geerhardus, Reformed Dogmatics V4 Soteriology chp2:7.ii

First, Nicodemus' ignorance isn't much of an argument for or against anything. Second, either are extra-biblical appeals to authority (even if they are sources we might both value). I assume you've read Calvinist sources other than Vos so you know Vos' soteriology was eschatological and, while well respected, there's also a lot of disagreement. Third, I'm not seeing how any of Post 80 changes my original op-rely (Post 2), Post 25, 60, 62, 72, or 78.

If new birth and justification (and other factors of the ordo salutis are inextricably ties together then the new birth is a necessity for eternal life and there is no other means of salvation. Maybe this will help us all...

Matthew 18:1-4
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The larger text and context is not about how salvation is accomplished but Jesus uses a phrase, "straphete kai genethe" which the NAS translates as "converted." A more accurate transliteration would be "turn and become," or "turn and come into existence." The straphete (change) is often compared to repentance and understood as change direction but in this passage it means become, and in have existence. The initial reading implies we need to become childlike, but the Greek says something much more substantive. Furthermore, a person does not have to be Calvinist to understand throughout the NT the agency of genethe (G1096; ginomai) is God.

A person must be converted by God - turned and converted by God - and become like children or s/he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[prism]

First, Nicodemus' ignorance isn't much of an argument for or against anything. Second, either are extra-biblical appeals to authority (even if they are sources we might both value). I assume you've read Calvinist sources other than Vos so you know Vos' soteriology was eschatological and, while well respected, there's also a lot of disagreement. Third, I'm not seeing how any of Post 80 changes my original op-rely (Post 2), Post 25, 60, 62, 72, or 78.

If new birth and justification (and other factors of the ordo salutis are inextricably ties together then the new birth is a necessity for eternal life and there is no other means of salvation. Maybe this will help us all...

Matthew 18:1-4
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The larger text and context is not about how salvation is accomplished but Jesus uses a phrase, "straphete kai genethe" which the NAS translates as "converted." A more accurate transliteration would be "turn and become," or "turn and come into existence." The straphete (change) is often compared to repentance and understood as change direction but in this passage it means become, and in have existence. The initial reading implies we need to become childlike, but the Greek says something much more substantive. Furthermore, a person does not have to be Calvinist to understand throughout the NT the agency of genethe (G1096; ginomai) is God.

A person must be converted by God - turned and converted by God - and become like children or s/he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

Well, in the past you have asked for sources. So I gave it.. I don't see where Vos was denying the necessity of the new birth, in fact he goes on to say a couple of paragraphs down.., "A calling comes from outside; a rebirth works from the inside out."

 

[fastfredy0]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

According to many (maybe a majority) you can have eternal life if you die before what is termed the "age of accountability".

 

[Mr GLee]

First, Nicodemus' ignorance isn't much of an argument for or against anything. Second, either are extra-biblical appeals to authority (even if they are sources we might both value). I assume you've read Calvinist sources other than Vos so you know Vos' soteriology was eschatological and, while well respected, there's also a lot of disagreement. Third, I'm not seeing how any of Post 80 changes my original op-rely (Post 2), Post 25, 60, 62, 72, or 78.

I would offer.
Nicodemus an excellent example, As a Pharisees he was a sign and wonder seeker just like the Sadducees a pagan foundation. "out of sight out of mind". . He had no faith in the unseen God but rather looked to the venerable dying things of mankind .Like below those that make Jesus into a circus seal , saying we will not believe in a god not seen, we will believe it when our eyes see it .

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Jesus lovingly commanded Nicodemus not to marvel or wonder in unbelief. But rather believe God not seen in effect. . ..Just because you cannot see the work of the Holy Spirit it does not mean He has no power tp perform his living word he said . I have told you earthly things,(seen) and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things (Not seen)?

John 3:7-12 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

The loving commandment marvel not would appear to have moved Nicodemus to become born again

John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

Remember Satan who has no voice of his own is still bringing lying signs that many wonder after.

Wondering produces doubt. God's living word produce the fruit of His Spirit new birth.

A new birth is necessary .Marvel not.

 

[makesends]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

No. At least, not for the Elect. I have yet to see reason to believe that anyone but the Elect (angels and human) will be saved, though I am very curious about different apparent offices or purposes or members in heaven, that do not appear to be part of the Bride and Body of Christ.

For example, in Song of Solomon, there is the Husband, which is supposed to be representative of Christ, and there is his Bride, which I have always taken (and still do) to be the Elect humans. But then we find "friends of the bride" spoken of. Who is that?

 

[Josheb]

Well, in the past you have asked for sources. So I gave it.. I don't see where Vos was denying the necessity of the new birth, in fact he goes on to say a couple of paragraphs down.., "A calling comes from outside; a rebirth works from the inside out."

I do not believe I said Vos denied the new birth. I simply said Nicodemus' ignorance is nt a very good basis for answering this op's question and Vos' views, while orthodox and agreeable with me, are a little unusual given his view of Pauline eschatology being at the core of soteriology. If his book, "The Pauline Eschatology" hasn't been read, I recommend it.

 

[prism]

According to many (maybe a majority) you can have eternal life if you die before what is termed the "age of accountability".

 

[Carbon]

According to many (maybe a majority) you can have eternal life if you die before what is termed the "age of accountability".

I'm glad we don't go by the (maybe) majority, but scripture.

 

[fastfredy0]

I'm glad we don't go by the (maybe) majority, but scripture.

Yeah. I'm betting on "narrow is the gate and few that find it".

I was born and raised RC. At a young age, I stopped going to Church. My mother remained RC. Since then, I have studied the religion quite extensively. It was one of my interests.

Bet there is a lot more interest and drama to this tangential comment.

 

[donadams]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

Without Christ, and the new birth or the Christian sacrament of baptism they are devoid of grace, one cannot be united to God and His saints without Christ and His grace, and must remain faithful or repent or be lost.

 

[donadams]

Yeah. I'm betting on "narrow is the gate and few that find it".


Bet there is a lot more interest and drama to this tangential comment.

Are you saved before you get in the narrow road?

 

[prism]

Without Christ, and the new birth or the Christian sacrament of baptism they are devoid of grace, one cannot be united to God and His saints without Christ and His grace, and must remain faithful or repent or be lost.

Are all baptized babies born again?

 

[donadams]

Are all baptized babies born again?

Yes born again from above by God’s grace, “baptismal regeneration” literally a new creation in Christ!

 

[prism]

Yes born again from above by God’s grace, “baptismal regeneration” literally a new creation in Christ!

Well, I grew up in East Los Angeles an area inundated with Roman Catholicism where they also baptize their infants and yet it is one of the most gang riddled area in all the United States.

 

[donadams]

Well, I grew up in East Los Angeles an area inundated with Roman Catholicism where they also baptize their infants and yet it is one of the most gang riddled area in all the United States.

I’m not sure I understand the disconnect here?
Can you explain it?

Christ’s grace does not force us to be good, we must chose good or evil, if it’s not a free will choice then it’s not sin! We must know it is wrong or against the commandments and Choose freely to do it to be sin!

Jn 15:4 Matt 24:13 also


Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Notice: faithful that means you can also be unfaithful!

 

[prism]

I’m not sure I understand the disconnect here?
Can you explain it?

Christ’s grace does not force us to be good, we must chose good or evil, if it’s not a free will choice then it’s not sin! We must know it is wrong or against the commandments and Choose freely to do it to be sin!

Jn 15:4 Matt 24:13 also


Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Notice: faithful that means you can also be unfaithful!

IOW, I hardly saw any evidence of the new birth where a person is endowed with a new nature...God's nature and a desire to do good. Gang life is not a reflection of His nature.

Notice: faithful that means you can also be unfaithful!

Talk about a disconnect.

 

[donadams]

IOW, I hardly saw any evidence of the new birth where a person is endowed with a new nature...God's nature and a desire to do good. Gang life is not a reflection of His nature.

Talk about a disconnect.

Is Grace irresistible?

 

[prism]

Is Grace irresistible?

Who can resist His will?

(Rom 9:18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

[donadams]

Who can resist His will?

(Rom 9:18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Sinners