New Birth; a Necessity?

[Odë:hgöd]

~

John 4:10-14 . . If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would
have asked him and he would have given you living water . . .whoever drinks the water I give
him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling
up to eternal life.

That passage is saying, in so many words, that even were folks to lose the source of
the living water, that would be okay as far needing it again because that particular
beverage has supernatural effects, i.e. it slacks thirst permanently; once for all time.

** Living water is identified as the Spirit spoken of in John 7:37-39.

Now here's something to consider: Born-again folks in the Old Testament were
always in danger of offending God to the point of losing the Spirit-- for example
Samson, Saul, and David-- whereas born-again folks in the New Testament, no
matter how seriously they offend God will never, ever lose the Spirit.

So then:

● Eph 4:30 . . Grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the
day of redemption.

The Greek word translated "sealed" pertains to impressions left in wax when a
signet is pressed into it. In other words: the sealing here speaks of God's
commitment, viz: His signature on the dotted line, which is somewhat similar to the
notarizing ritual that He and Abraham were parties to in Gen 15:9-21.

There are folks at large claiming it's possible for folks whose beliefs are in line with
Eph 1:13-14 to lose their redemption. When folks at large do that, when they make
that claim, they are insinuating God is a person of marginal integrity who cannot be
trusted to honor His own personal signature.

NOTE: The sealing spoken of in Eph 1:13-14 is likened to a "guarantee" which is
from a Greek word similar in meaning to Judah's guarantee per the 38th chapter of
Genesis whereby he promised to compensate Tamar (disguised as a cult prostitute)
with a lamb for services rendered. He left his staff and his signet with her to insure
payment; which meant that were Judah to renege, Tamar would be within her
rights to keep both the staff and the signet.

So then, were God to renege on His signature, sealed folks would keep the Spirit
regardless. I cannot imagine anyone incarcerated in Hell while indwelt with the Holy
Spirit but apparently there are a number of folks at large sincerely convinced it's
possible.

** Among those sincerely convinced are likely some folks who grew up in dysfunctional
homes and/or the foster system whereby they developed a rather stubborn condition
called Reactive Attachment Disorder; which results in the victim feeling convinced that
nobody loves them and/or would ever want to be their best friend forever. RAD kids grow
up to become adults with some crippling trust issues that are nigh unto humanly impossible
to overcome.
_

 

[prism]

Now here's something to consider: Born-again folks in the Old Testament were
always in danger of offending God to the point of losing the Spirit-- for example
Samson, Saul, and David-- whereas born-again folks in the New Testament, no
matter how seriously they offend God will never, ever lose the Spirit.

That's assuming there were 'born again folks' in the OT. Ezek. 36 and Jer. 31 seem to indicate otherwise.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

~

That's assuming there were 'born again folks' in the OT. Ezek. 36 and Jer. 31 seem to indicate
otherwise.

The language and grammar of the new covenant indicates that its scope is
corporate rather than individually, viz: Jesus' crucifixion ratified the new covenant
(Matt 26:28) but it has not yet been applied to the entire nation of Israel all
together and all at once as that operation is in the future rather than the present.
(cf. Isa 4:2-4, Isa 60:21, & Rom 11:26-27)
_

 

[prism]

~


The language and grammar of the new covenant indicates that its scope is
corporate rather than individually, viz: Jesus' crucifixion ratified the new covenant
(Matt 26:28) but it has not yet been applied to the entire nation of Israel all
together and all at once as that operation is in the future rather than the present.
(cf. Isa 4:2-4, Isa 60:21, & Rom 11:26-27)
_

So, you don't believe any individual today is born again?

 

[Odë:hgöd]

~

So, you don't believe any individual today is born again?

Jesus said at John 3:3-8 that no one can either see nor enter the kingdom of God
lest they undergo a birth from above. Well; according to Col 1:13, individuals were
transferring into the kingdom of God in Paul's day so it's likely there are individuals
in our own day undergoing births from above too.

I suspect that a number of Christians doubt the existence of births from above
happening in the Old Testament is because they sincerely believe it can only
happen under a covenant, specifically the new covenant. But births from above
were taking place long before the procedure was codified in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and
Ezekiel 36:24-27 which is probably why Jesus scolded Nicodemus for his knowledge
deficit because as a professor of religion in Israel, he really should've been up to
speed on the subject; especially seeing as how a birth from above isn't optional,
rather, it's a must. (John 3:7)
_

 

[prism]

I suspect that a number of Christians doubt the existence of births from above
happening in the Old Testament is because they sincerely believe it can only
happen under a covenant, specifically the new covenant. But births from above
were taking place long before the procedure was codified in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and
Ezekiel 36:24-27 which is probably why Jesus scolded Nicodemus for his knowledge
deficit because as a professor of religion in Israel, he really should've been up to
speed on the subject; especially seeing as how a birth from above isn't optional,
rather, it's a must. (John 3:7)
_

I can’t speak for other Christians but in my case, I see it set in the future wrapped in better promises under an unconditional covenant…

Hebrews 10:16 KJV
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Jeremiah 31:33-34 KJV
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


…we did not see that amongst OT saints.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

~
Elements of the new covenant can be seen in the Old Testament.

For example: David knowingly committed the sins of murder and adultery. The
covenant that Moses people entered into with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
and Deuteronomy permits neither pardon nor atonement for deliberate sins.

● Num 15:30-31 . . Anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien,
blasphemes The Lord, and that person must be cut off from his people. Because he
has despised The Lord's word and broken His commands, that person must surely
be cut off; his guilt remains on him.

Yet contrary to the covenant's strict requirements, God put away David's sins.
(2Sam 12:13)

And David wrote about his good fortune in Ps 32:5 wherein he said:

"Then I acknowledged my sin to You and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will
confess my transgressions to The Lord-- and You forgave the guilt of my sin."

How was God able to forgive David? Well of course by means of Christ's crucifixion,
the same as today. (Rom 3:21-26)

Did David believe in Jesus? Well; considering the amount David wrote about him in
the Psalms, I think we're pretty safe to assert that David was a believer: and in
point of fact; so was Abraham (John 8:56) and some of the prophets too. (1Pet
1:10-11) I feel safe to assume that the Old Testament's saints knew more about
Jesus than many of today's rank and file pew warmers.
_

 

[prism]

~
Elements of the new covenant can be seen in the Old Testament.

For example: David knowingly committed the sins of murder and adultery. The
covenant that Moses people entered into with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
and Deuteronomy permits neither pardon nor atonement for deliberate sins.

● Num 15:30-31 . . Anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien,
blasphemes The Lord, and that person must be cut off from his people. Because he
has despised The Lord's word and broken His commands, that person must surely
be cut off; his guilt remains on him.

Yet contrary to the covenant's strict requirements, God put away David's sins.
(2Sam 12:13)

And David wrote about his good fortune in Ps 32:5 wherein he said:

"Then I acknowledged my sin to You and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will
confess my transgressions to The Lord-- and You forgave the guilt of my sin."

How was God able to forgive David? Well of course by means of Christ's crucifixion,
the same as today. (Rom 3:21-26)

Did David believe in Jesus? Well; considering the amount David wrote about him in
the Psalms, I think we're pretty safe to assert that David was a believer: and in
point of fact; so was Abraham (John 8:56) and some of the prophets too. (1Pet
1:10-11) I feel safe to assume that the Old Testament's saints knew more about
Jesus than many of today's rank and file pew warmers.
_

Only problem is that most of the Book of Hebrews explains the promised New Covenant complete with Better Promises, Better Priesthood, Better Sacrifices, Better Law (i.e. written on the heart), Better Guarantor, Better Hope, Better Word, Better Country,Better Mediator, in short a Better Covenant than the Old Testament, heck it even swung wide the Door of Salvation to us Gentiles (Rom 11).

 

[Odë:hgöd]

~
The new covenant's priesthood is based upon a holy man in the Old Testament
named Melchizedek (spellings vary)

● Heb 5:4-6 . . Christ did not take upon himself the honor of becoming a high
priest. But God said to him: You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
(cf. Ps 110:4)

Melchizedek was God's high priest in Abraham's day. (Gen 14:18-20 & Heb 5:10)

Mel's authority held sway in his region +/- 400 years prior to the covenant that
Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy --a.k.a. Moses' law.

Moses' law isn't retroactive (Deut 5:2-4) therefore none of its obligations, along
with its consequences for non compliance, applied to Mel's priesthood. In point of
fact: the line of Aaron is the official priesthood within the scope of Moses' law rather
than Melchizedek. (Lev 29:9)

Now; if none of Moses' obligations and consequences applied to Mel, then of
course neither did they apply to the folks for whom his priesthood ministered;
which at the time included Abraham. (Gen 14:20 & Gal 3:17)

That was quite an advantage for not only Abraham, but for all the folk's within
the scope of Mel's high priesthood, and it's quite an advantage for folks within
the scope of Jesus' high priesthood too seeing as how his is patterned after
Melchizedek's.

The measure of immunity available to folks via the priesthood order of Melchizedek
is practically a license to steal, so to speak --and I could only wish everybody knew
about it because there are folks out there whose slipshod compliance with the
Sermon on the Mount, and the Ten Commandments, has them on a direct path
toward a terrifying destination that God has made very easy to avoid.

FAQ: How so?

REPLY: RSVP

Find some privacy, anywhere convenient. I suggest covering your face with your
hands and closing your eyes; it will give you a sense of connection. Then, sort of
under your breath, and in your own words, simply speak up for yourself telling God
your concerns about retribution, and that you'd like to be placed within the scope of
His son's high priesthood to avoid it.

If God is favorable; you will be placed in very good hands.

● John 6:37-40 . . All that the Father gives me will come to me; and whoever comes
to me I will never drive away.

● Rom 8:34 . . Who is he that condemns? Shall Christ Jesus, who died? More than
that: who was restored to life? He who is the right hand of God and is also
interceding for us?

Buen Camino
(Pleasant Journey)
_

 

[prism]

The new covenant's priesthood is based upon a holy man in the Old Testament
named Melchizedek (spellings vary)

Who was only a type of Christ.

● Heb 5:4-6 . . Christ did not take upon himself the honor of becoming a high
priest. But God said to him: You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
(cf. Ps 110:4)

Right, He was declared a priest (Ps 110:4)

Mel's authority held sway in his region +/- 400 years prior to the covenant that
Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy --a.k.a. Moses' law.

Mosaic law was conditional as pictured by an ever changing priesthood.

Moses' law isn't retroactive (Deut 5:2-4) therefore none of its obligations, along
with its consequences for non compliance, applied to Mel's priesthood. In point of
fact: the line of Aaron is the official priesthood within the scope of Moses' law rather
than Melchizedek. (Lev 29:9)

yes, and?

Now; if none of Moses' obligations and consequences applied to Mel, then of
course neither did they apply to the folks for whom his priesthood ministered;
which at the time included Abraham. (Gen 14:20 & Gal 3:17)

Agreed, but the point?

That was quite an advantage for not only Abraham, but for all the folk's within
the scope of Mel's high priesthood, and it's quite an advantage for folks within
the scope of Jesus' high priesthood too seeing as how his is patterned after
Melchizedek's.

Advantage? Hasn't it always been of faith?

The measure of immunity available to folks via the priesthood order of Melchizedek
is practically a license to steal, so to speak --and I could only wish everybody knew
about it because there are folks out there whose slipshod compliance with the
Sermon on the Mount, and the Ten Commandments, has them on a direct path
toward a terrifying destination that God has made very easy to avoid.

Immunity? We have all fallen short of the Big10. the S.M. and are justified (reckoned righteous) by faith alone.

FAQ: How so?

REPLY: RSVP

???

Find some privacy, anywhere convenient. I suggest covering your face with your
hands and closing your eyes; it will give you a sense of connection. Then, sort of
under your breath, and in your own words, simply speak up for yourself telling God
your concerns about retribution, and that you'd like to be placed within the scope of
His son's high priesthood to avoid it.

Yup, the only place to avoid retribution! Don't you believe so?

If God is favorable; you will be placed in very good hands.

● John 6:37-40 . . All that the Father gives me will come to me; and whoever comes
to me I will never drive away.

● Rom 8:34 . . Who is he that condemns? Shall Christ Jesus, who died? More than
that: who was restored to life? He who is the right hand of God and is also
interceding for us?

Buen Camino

Thank you

 

[EarlyActs]

Who was only a type of Christ.

Right, He was declared a priest (Ps 110:4)

Mosaic law was conditional as pictured by an ever changing priesthood.

yes, and?

Agreed, but the point?

Advantage? Hasn't it always been of faith?

Immunity? We have all fallen short of the Big10. the S.M. and are justified (reckoned righteous) by faith alone.

???

Yup, the only place to avoid retribution! Don't you believe so?

Thank you

It's difficult to think of Mel as human when his name means 'king of righteousness.' Compare Jer 23 and 33 about the Lord Our Righteousness.

 

[Josheb]

Who was only a type of Christ.

Right, He was declared a priest (Ps 110:4)

Mosaic law was conditional as pictured by an ever changing priesthood.

yes, and?

Agreed, but the point?

Advantage? Hasn't it always been of faith?

Immunity? We have all fallen short of the Big10. the S.M. and are justified (reckoned righteous) by faith alone.

???

Yup, the only place to avoid retribution! Don't you believe so?

Thank you

jsyk

@Odë:hgöd does not do discussion. Look and see. Peruse his ops. Your hopes up do not get.

 

[prism]

It's difficult to think of Mel as human when his name means 'king of righteousness.' Compare Jer 23 and 33 about the Lord Our Righteousness.

Heb 7:3 states, "is like the son of God, "
Hebrews 7:3 NET

Where it says 'he was without genealogy", I take it to mean without a 'recorded ancestry'.
What vss in Jer. 23 & 33?

​

 

[EarlyActs]

Heb 7:3 states, "is like the son of God, "
Hebrews 7:3 NET

Where it says 'he was without genealogy", I take it to mean without a 'recorded ancestry'.
What vss in Jer. 23 & 33?

​

I don’t like to put verses bc people don’t grasp the whole context . They just zero in on single lines and often complain back that ‘it doesn’t say that.’

So you can read those whole chapters and see what is going onn, how climactic it is for the Lord Our Righteousness to come.

You can do a search in Biblegateway in many versions for the phrase.

But it’s verse 6 and 16 in the other. But be sure to see all context, yes?

 

[Mr GLee]

That's assuming there were 'born again folks' in the OT. Ezek. 36 and Jer. 31 seem to indicate otherwise.

No need to assume. Born again Abel the prophet sent as a apostles was martyred. His blood like the blood of all born again saints cries out in hope of a new incorruptible body.

 

[prism]

I don’t like to put verses bc people don’t grasp the whole context . They just zero in on single lines and often complain back that ‘it doesn’t say that.’

Without God's Word (via verses), we haven't much in common or much to discuss.

 

[prism]

No need to assume. Born again Abel the prophet sent as a apostles was martyred. His blood like the blood of all born again saints cries out in hope of a new incorruptible body.

So was Nebuchadnezzar born again because he prophesied?

 

[Eleanor]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?

No, he cannot.

Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

There is no salvation apart from eternal life, which is received in the new birth, solely by the sovereign will and choice of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).

 

[prism]

Switching course a bit starboard, 'How does the new birth interrelate with justification?
Does one precede or is the cause of the other?

 

[Josheb]

Switching course a bit starboard, 'How does the new birth interrelate with justification?
Does one precede or is the cause of the other?

I'm inclined to say they co-occur at conversion, but keep in mind we are justified by several things, one of which is a gifted faith that begets faithfulness.