New Birth; a Necessity?

[Josheb]

.
Some years ago a know-it-all Sunday school teacher wasted the hour sitting us thru
a Hollywood movie that dramatized the life of Joseph. When it ended I raised my
hand and asked the teacher whether Joseph was born again. He was stupefied and
after a moment of dumbfounded silence; the class erupted into debate from one
side of the room to the other.

So when he asked me to explain, I said-- in so many words --that the language and
grammar of John 3:3-8 affords no exemptions.
_

Curious anecdote. You did not answer his question any more than he answered yours and you put your avoidance out here in the forum for all to read. John 3:3-8 does not afford exceptions.

Was Joseph born again?

John 3 tells us a person cannot see the kingdom unless he's been born anew from above. Is there any indication Joseph had seen the kingdom of God? Nothing in the Old or New Testaments states he had but the OT tells us he was favored by God above all of his brothers and his two sons were adopted into the progeny of God's people. The only mention of him in the NT says,

Hebrews 11:21-22, 39-40
By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones............ And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Joseph was approved by God and in "us," those to whom God has spoken in His Son, those who will inherit salvation he will be made perfect.

 

[donadams]

The faith of Christ as a labor of his love is never alone .

No such thing a "stain of original sin" a Catholic oral traditions of dying fathers needed to support the limbo and purgatory doctrine of men Doing despite to the fullness of grace the whole cost of salvation .Teaching only a queen mother of heaven received the fulness the rest of mankind a unknowable amount of grace .They also teach she visits them in Limbo for the younger or Purgatory for the mature sinners to comfort them in thier agony. Even comforting, guiding the protestants in thier suffering

Death is the appointment all make, not near dead" a stain" but dead never to rise to new life .

Peter our brother in the Lord the serial denier used as a warning what not to do.

Coming from a law of the fathers (Pharisees with Sadducees) just like Saul before his born again conversion the baptism of the unseen Holy Spirit . Right after being reinstated for his denial of Christ again and again . Peter our brother in the Lord got jealous of John and went to town to start another of the oral traditions of dying mankind . Jesus exposed the lies and said if every time Christ performed that work of exposing the lies of the oral traditions of men .We would need a bigger planet to hold the volumes upon volumes

The same scripture the Catholic fathers use to try and promote the oral traditions of dying men in that they are a higher authority that all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

John 21:20-24 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Amen ? ????

Original sin yes!

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[Josheb]

16 + refers to Jn 3:16+ about condemnation and justification.

Condemnation, yes. Justification? No.

 

[EarlyActs]

Condemnation, yes. Justification? No.

There is only one answer to condemnation, and it is justification. The status of being born again has to do with being able to see what the kingdom of God is, not with justification, but they relate later.

 

[Josheb]

There is only one answer to condemnation, and it is justification.

Incorrect.

It's time you start proving these claims. A lot of baseless, evidence, unsupported claims are posted and when the scriptures cited are looked up it turns out the scriptures DO NOT state what has been posted. The correct answer to condemnation is vindication, not justification. Justification is a legal term indicating a person has a legitimate basis to stand trial. Nothing more.

The status of being born again has to do with being able to see what the kingdom of God is, not with justification, but they relate later.

An unjustified person is not going to be able to see anything, kingdom of God or not. That sentence states the "status" of being born again does not have to do with justification, but they are related. How can something that has nothing to do with another thing be related to it?

Nothing

but

Related

Both cannot be true at the same time. You have contradicted yourself. If they are related, then they do have something to do with each other. Please stop making baseless claims and prove what you post - and prove it with actual, explicit statements in scripture, not abuses of scripture where claims do not reconcile with what is actually stated. There's no mention of justification in John 3. In fact, during the last hour or so since I posted Post #19 I have searched the entire chapter of John's gospel and I can't find the words, "justify," "justified," or "justification" anywhere in the entire gospel! I can find them in Matthew's and Luke's gospels and more than two dozen mentions in the epistolary, but not one single mention in John's gospel.

The most important part of John 3 is NOT justification.

Please stop making scripture say things it does not state. Please stop adding to scripture and inventing your own reading of it expecting others wo accept the man-made views.

 

[prism]

Indeed. But with the reference to condemnation/justification there in ch 3, and with a key quote about Abraham being 'he believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' the 'anothen' (from above, from the beginning) would seem to go there (to the Abraham model/example/narrative).

Being born again is not used in the NT as much as being made alive in Christ. And in Jn 3 it is more about being able to see something that is not visible, than a condition for salvation.

Just wondering out loud. Do you believe OT saints were born again? When do you think it started? With Adam? Enoch? Abraham?

 

[Odë:hgöd]

~
● John 3:5-6 . . . Most truly I say to you: Unless anyone is born from water and
spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. What has been born from the flesh
is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.

One day I asked an experienced Jehovah's Witness if he was born of the spirit. He
answered no, and added that he did not expect to undergo a spirit birth in either
this life or the next because his hope isn't in Heaven.

The JW was somehow unaware that Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus wasn't about
things in Heaven, rather, things on Earth.

● John 3:12 . . . If I have told you earthly things and yet you do not believe, how
will you believe if I tell you Heavenly things?

In other words: the kingdom of God, and the spirit-birth requirement, pertain to
Messiah's theocratic world down here on the ground rather than the supreme
being's celestial world up in the sky.

It's both tragic and ironic that the Watchtower Society's rank and file missionaries
go worldwide advertising a kingdom that they themselves will never be allowed to
enter-- not because they didn't work hard enough to deserve it, but simply because
they were led to believe themselves exempt from the spirit-birth requirement.
_

 

[Mr GLee]

Original sin yes!

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Original compared to what?

Non original sin, venial. . . almost sin??

In Roman Catholic theology two kinds of sin. They teach that God says venial does not wholly block the inflow of sanctifying grace. Therefore doing despite to the fullness of grace the complete cost of salvation .

Leaving room in one's imagination for the limbo and purgatory doctrines of dying mankind as if when man die he is not really dead. The same kind of lie Peter said of John that he would not die when Peter went to town and started another of the many oral traditions of dying mankind.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Teaching that only Mary as queen mother of heaven received the fullness of grace the full price . Suffering and wondering with not end of faith in sight

The Bible infallibly informs us there must be heresies as differences of opinions as long as they do not do despite to the fullness of Grace .

Why venerate dead saints like Saul ??

1 Samuel 28: 6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

3500 and rising what some call patron saints his and hers gods in the likeness of disembodied dead men .

 

[donadams]

Original compared to what?

Non original sin, venial. . . almost sin??

In Roman Catholic theology two kinds of sin. They teach that God says venial does not wholly block the inflow of sanctifying grace. Therefore doing despite to the fullness of grace the complete cost of salvation .

Leaving room in one's imagination for the limbo and purgatory doctrines of dying mankind as if when man die he is not really dead. The same kind of lie Peter said of John that he would not die when Peter went to town and started another of the many oral traditions of dying mankind.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Teaching that only Mary as queen mother of heaven received the fullness of grace the full price . Suffering and wondering with not end of faith in sight

The Bible infallibly informs us there must be heresies as differences of opinions as long as they do not do despite to the fullness of Grace .

Why venerate dead saints like Saul ??

1 Samuel 28: 6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

3500 and rising what some call patron saints his and hers gods in the likeness of disembodied dead men .

Original or first sin!

The saints ain’t dead!
Matt 22:32
Jn 11:25

 

[EarlyActs]

Just wondering out loud. Do you believe OT saints were born again? When do you think it started? With Adam? Enoch? Abraham?

Remember the 1st NT meaning of born from above is to a leader in Judaism so that he would not be stuck in his physical descent thinking, which meant nothing. 'Anothen' (from above, from the beginning) took him back to what Abraham believed about justification.

The born again theme is quite minor (3x in the whole NT). Low information believers have a habit of majoring on minors.

Heb 11 says people all the way back had faith.

 

[Mr GLee]

Original or first sin!

The saints ain’t dead!
Matt 22:32
Jn 11:25

The one that appointed "really dead" as in dying. . . the end comes. . the flesh returns to the dust and spirit returned to the father of spirits .

That original; sin .Where does the fake or counterfeit non original . . . . . . . come in .

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If the disembodied what you must call patron saints as workers with familiar spirits gods are not dead then who are the Catholics praying to ? rather than our one Holy Father?

Like what's he doing sleeping letting the dead saints do all the work even though it has been finished he rest on the 7th and still resting. ?

Scripture God's infalible word informs us what you hope for is impossible .Why even hope? What the goal

Luke 16: 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Do you think the fixed great gulf was to small, not so great after all? ?

 

[Odë:hgöd]

~
FAQ: What is the water element Jesus spoke of in John 3:3-8?

REPLY: Well; first off it isn't natural H20, rather, it's supernatural; and secondly it's
for drinking rather than bathing.

● John 4:10-14 . . If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a
drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water . .
.whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him
will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

FAQ: How might someone obtain this living water?

REPLY: It's available upon request: free of charge and no strings attached.

● John 7:37-39 . . On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said
in a loud voice: "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever
believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from
within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were
later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not
yet been glorified.

● Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say: Come! And let him who hears say:
Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free
gift of the water of life.
_

 

[prism]

The born again theme is quite minor (3x in the whole NT). Low information believers have a habit of majoring on minors.

Having Dispensational leanings, most likely puts me in that 'low information' camp. lol.
In Ezekiel 36:25-26 and Jer 31:33-34 and quoted in Heb 8:8, all put forward this matter of a New Covenant where He WILL write His laws on their hearts, indicating a future work. Yes, agreed, justification ought to be emphasized over the new birth, but can one be justified without first the new birth?

 

[EarlyActs]

Having Dispensational leanings, most likely puts me in that 'low information' camp. lol.
In Ezekiel 36:25-26 and Jer 31:33-34 and quoted in Heb 8:8, all put forward this matter of a New Covenant where He WILL write His laws on their hearts, indicating a future work. Yes, agreed, justification ought to be emphasized over the new birth, but can one be justified without first the new birth?

Re last question, yes. Changes follow the knowledge of the grace of being justified.

The first thing we find about the birth from above is that it helps a person see the kingdom.

 

[prism]

The first thing we find about the birth from above is that it helps a person see the kingdom.

As I understand it. it places the person into the kingdom, not just 'helps him see the kingdom'....

Colossians 1:13 ESV
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

 

[EarlyActs]

As I understand it. it places the person into the kingdom, not just 'helps him see the kingdom'....

Colossians 1:13 ESV
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

treat the pieces of the grammar carefully in John. Also don't generalize to everyone--yet. He couldn't even see the kingdom at work (it was working, but the guy was too busy operating Judaism's equipment). He would have to be born from above to do so.

This was annoying to Nic because he was born of a pedigree he could trace back. But that is not the kind Jesus had in mind, hence his vision problem.

We have not got to justification yet and we are not jumping to Col 1 without a better reason to do so. We should get that part from the immediate after material in vs 16+. Yes, that event in Christ transfers us; his work is the material question; but there are no such definite answers about any other subjective aspects.

Do you feel that you understand 'anothen' better than last week? It really does have much more to do with Judaism's past and what was truly the anchor of Abraham's clan. As mentioned before the description is only 3x in the whole NT. Being made alive is much more common (but usually meant in a connection to justification) and justification is far more often.

 

[prism]

Do you feel that you understand 'anothen' better than last week? It really does have much more to do with Judaism's past and what was truly the anchor of Abraham's clan. As mentioned before the description is only 3x in the whole NT. Being made alive is much more common (but usually meant in a connection to justification) and justification is far more often

I knew for years the meaning of anothen.
Perhaps what you call ‘Judaism’, I call Scripture and quoted passages from Ezekiel and Jeremiah indicating that perhaps Nicodemus should have known better. Remember 2Tim 3:16 is referring to ALL Scripture, which includes the OT which. Incidentally includes ‘Abraham’s clan’. If you are referring to ‘description, the new birth certainly occurs more than 3 times taking into consideration passages such as 2Cor 5:17. Besides, the number of times a truth is mentioned is rather immaterial as to it’s veracity or even importance. How many times do you read of Christ’s ministry of intercession (Session) at the Father’s right hand? Yet it’s no less true or important.

 

[Mr GLee]

Do you feel that you understand 'anothen' better than last week? It really does have much more to do with Judaism's past and what was truly the anchor of Abraham's clan. As mentioned before the description is only 3x in the whole NT. Being made alive is much more common (but usually meant in a connection to justification) and justification is far more often.

I am not understanding why the focus is on the word "anothen". Born again or born from above (born of God sons of God ) Abel the first mentioned prophet martyr born of God

Are you saying justification is separate from salvation?

And what is the purpose of using the word Judaism without defining what it means ? Does it mean true believers as Christians the new name God named born again Israel His bride in Acts Or the other Israel non converted outward Jew according to what the eyes see.?

 

[EarlyActs]

I knew for years the meaning of anothen.
Perhaps what you call ‘Judaism’, I call Scripture and quoted passages from Ezekiel and Jeremiah indicating that perhaps Nicodemus should have known better. Remember 2Tim 3:16 is referring to ALL Scripture, which includes the OT which. Incidentally includes ‘Abraham’s clan’. If you are referring to ‘description, the new birth certainly occurs more than 3 times taking into consideration passages such as 2Cor 5:17. Besides, the number of times a truth is mentioned is rather immaterial as to it’s veracity or even importance. How many times do you read of Christ’s ministry of intercession (Session) at the Father’s right hand? Yet it’s no less true or important.

In Nics case, it should contrast mostly with the birth descent as thought of by Judaism at the time. In John 1, Gods children are not born from that nor a husbands decision. In the other narratives of John the Baptist, ‘God can make sons of Abraham out of stones’ if he likes.

Yes there are lines of thought from OT passages, but during the IT period, they were extra careful to try to avoid prevent the destruction of Jerusalem again. This started with Nehemiah—Ezra and their race purity.

Jesus wanted him and Judaism to go back to the mission to the Gentiles embedded in the key Abrahamic lines, about the Seed and about justification, expounded in Gal 3.

This is quite a ways from , say , a young man today , an incarcerated criminal, hearing that God can forgive him through Christ. He may ‘love much bc he was forgiven much (that is obvious)’. He will have a new life inside him, but I can hardly connect the two vectors in my mind—of him and of Nic/Judaism.

It may be that Paul had the contrast to Judaism in mind in Titus 3 and Peter did in 1P2, can’t be sure.

I don’t see where we need to know when or how justification and new life connect, only that they do. You have said that the Gospel of justification is a trigger of new life and that is sufficient.

 

[Mr GLee]

In Nics case, it should contrast mostly with the birth descent as thought of by Judaism at the time. In John 1, Gods children are not born from that nor a husbands decision. In the other narratives of John the Baptist, ‘God can make sons of Abraham out of stones’ if he likes.

How would that apply to born again Abel the prophet ? The second .Born of the incorruptible born again seed according to jeanology Luke .

The seed Onan spilled. The same seed Cain saw no value as a first born or Esau who traded his birthright for a cup of hairy goat soup. No value in the unseen things of God

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
.
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The jeanology beginning with Abraham has a different purpose .