something like scales fell from his eyes

[Carbon]

I agree. Regeneration, and the changes that come from regeneration, are immediate. However, I'm not sure I would use Acts 9"18's scales to assert that. Since there is no report of scales falling from any other converts eyes Paul's scales appear to be a condition unique to Paul, especially if the verse is to be read literally. We know from the gospels the Isaiah prophecy of blindness, deafness, and inability to repent was fulfilled and the keys to the kingdom in which sight, hearing, and ability was given and given prior to Christ's sacrifice. Were the apostles regenerate prior to Calvary? Were they regenerate prior to Pentecost? Was what the saw and understood prior to Calvary evidence of the post-Pentecost vision and understanding only to a lesser degree? Or did the resurrection and the post resurrection teachings, or the Pentecost indwelling of the Spirit bring about an entirely different kind of seeing, knowledge, and understanding? What we do know for certain is...

Perhaps you are right but I meant it as once regenerated, our eyes are opened. In that way, it is like scales falling from our eyes. Also, in this sense, doesn't everyone born again experience the same? I believe we all do. This wasn't the Demascas road experience, this was later on when he got his sight back.

 

[Arial]

Amen to that. If I may just add to what you are saying. When a sinner is regenerated (John 3:3) and they can see the kingdom and therefore desire Christ, they believe. It isnt a decision from them that decides or causes belief. It is God Himself doing a work.

Right. No one sees (understands and believes, as the kingdom is not now visible) unless they have been born again. Therefore, to understand and to believe is because one has been regenerated. It would be impossible to believe and understand and reject what we believe. The decision of regeneration is made by God and comes by the work of the Holy Spirit. All praise, and honor and glory to God, for without regeneration none would be saved.

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.



Flesh and blood profit nothing.

 

[Alive]

It’s funny, but the Mrs. And I listened to Acts 8,9 and ten this morning!
Anyway, it seems to me the “seems like scales” resulted from God blinding Paul on the road and them falling off when Ananias prayed for Paul, was a gracious sign for the brethren there.
Nevertheless, a connection to a New Vision given to the elect.

 

[Josheb]

Perhaps you are right but I meant it as once regenerated, our eyes are opened.

Yes.... and we may not at at first realize our eyes have been opened to see all that can be seen and understood, or that a new way is now available.

In that way, it is like scales falling from our eyes. Also, in this sense, doesn't everyone born again experience the same?

If the "scales" are treated metaphorically or symbolically, then yes.

I believe we all do.

My conversion experience was certainly eye-opening, but I do not recall any scales left on the floor .

This wasn't the Demascas road experience, this was later on when he got his sight back.

Yep.

 

[Carbon]

If the "scales" are treated metaphorically or symbolically, then yes.

Well of course. Do you believe I could have meant it literally?

 

[Josheb]

Well of course. Do you believe I could have meant it literally?

LOL. What you could do and what you do do may be very different, and try not to presume to speak for others. I was simply covering the base for the benefit of all participants. I, personally, would not have a lot of dissent with a metaphorical rendering but I might ask for further clarification. Or rather, I would not have a lot of dissent unless or until I read something in their explanation that did not reconcile with the text of scripture. I read the text literally but also think there is allegorical significance specific to Paul and generalizable to ourselves because we all have been indoctrinated in our youth to believe things that were untrue, and we all were once blind but now see (as the hymn puts it), and we all had metaphorical "scales" removed so we could see in a new way and thereby see old things in a new way and new things not previously existing in our lives due to the changes brought about by regeneration.

 

[fastfredy0]

You always throw some iron out there for me to sharpen with

You know, they always say to one another: "Iron sharpens iron". They never mention the fact the "Iron can dull iron". *giggle*

when R.C. speaks I always grab my seat and get ready to learn.

Me too. I use to say R.C. (where R.C. not the Roman Catholic church *giggle) was my favorite living theologian and then he dies and I have to find a new living favorite.

 

[Carbon]

You know, they always say to one another: "Iron sharpens iron". They never mention the fact the "Iron can dull iron". *giggle*


Me too. I use to say R.C. (where R.C. not the Roman Catholic church *giggle) was my favorite living theologian and then he dies and I have to find a new living favorite.

Yes, I believe God gifted us with him.

 

[makesends]

When the scales fell from your eyes, you may not know the exact time, but you may remember something that finally broke through as normal. Things that you perceived as divine that you couldn't before your regeneration.

One example is "the beauty of holiness." Isn't this a sweetness your new taste enjoys?

Isn't this why the Psalmist could say, that the word is sweeter also than honey, and the drippings of the honeycomb?
More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb. Ps 19:10.


Just like what Jesus said on his journey to Samaria when his starving disciples went to town to look for food.

32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33 So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” 34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. John 4.

Did you not perceive these things as divine, that the unregenerate cannot? Surely you have.

Is this not a radical change?

I honestly don't know when I was regenerated. It may have been before anything I can remember, or it could have been today. I tend to think it was when I was 5, according to my mother's claim. But I can attest to the long hard road of sanctification and what I think of simply of "coming to know the Lord better". I am sure that my experience is no less unique, nor more, than anyone else's, except that, as I assess it, anyway, I never knew of a time when I was altogether without the Lord, contrary to those who remember being unregenerate. What I remember is my often attempted rebellions, and my attempts to abandon the fellowship of my fellow believers, and to live almost entirely as a non-believer.

To me that is enough that I can relate to what you are talking about. Ha! Writing this I remember the sudden realization one day, that this agonizing crawl through life is a sweet journey, and particularly, the delicious realization that God himself is the ONLY author of anything "NEW". While I suppose books could be written on that subject from many chapters of direction from which that fact can be understood, I can hardly describe it, but only my sure belief that it is so, and that it is, in part, basic or foundational to the understanding that only later I came to find out was pretty much the same as Reformed belief.

 

[makesends]

You know, they always say to one another: "Iron sharpens iron". They never mention the fact the "Iron can dull iron". *giggle*


Me too. I use to say R.C. (where R.C. not the Roman Catholic church *giggle) was my favorite living theologian and then he dies and I have to find a new living favorite.

Ha! I almost said I have one for you —John Owen. But he was dead long before RC.

Makes me think of what a brother said once: "I love it when a bunch of old dead guys agree with me."

 

[Red Baker]

It's amazing, I can always count on you for some good stuff. You always throw some iron out there for me to sharpen with, thanks. And I do love R. C. No matter what I think, when R.C. speaks I always grab my seat and get ready to learn.

But in this case, R.C. is speaking and teaching on assurance. And really he is only talking about two types of people, that's, 2 & 3. Scales have not fallen off the eyes of the people of 1 & 4. So they don't apply to the OP.

I had gotten this from R.C. ministry site that he started in 1971.

Do regeneration and conversion take place at the same time?

THOMAS: Regeneration takes place at the level of the subconscious, and conversion takes place at the level of consciousness. Let me give you an example. My wife

www.ligonier.org

 

[Red Baker]

David said: You don't need to know the correct nomenclature, to know that the light has been switched on inside you, that Jesus took your sins and punishment on the cross, that you are forgiven and that you now love Jesus and want to follow him. This is what happens when one is born of God; and it happens immediately.

David, one must at least understand meaning of regeneration based upon Jesus' teaching in John 3 to call this experience regeneration, when it very well could have been a beginning of conversions to the truth, when either age, or hearing the gospel for the first time, (with their new ears, and eyes and a heart to receive) or even witnessing the gospel being lived out in submission to the truth, which we have scriptures to support all three.

Regeneration gives a child of God the power to hear, see, understand, even though at first, they are only able to received the milk of the word, not meat.

Example would be helpful:

Matthew 27:44​

“The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.”

Luke 23:39-41~"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss."

At the beginning of our Lord's death on the cross, both malefactors mocked Christ, but at some time into this crucifixion one was regenerated and yes, immediately began to show forth fruits, yet he had no understanding of what had taken place within him by the power of God, we only see the results of this change in our own life, just as we can see in Nicodemus' confession in John 3:2

David: Have you ever experienced it?

Much like Nicodemus did, and conversion was a very small process (baby steps if you will) over a few years, I'm sure others have a different testimony. But, all of us should be close, as far as conversion goes.

David: You don't need to know the right words to know that you have new life inside you and have been forgiven because Jesus died for you.

David, one is dead in trespasses and sins, he must be resurrected to life by the power of God, and then, and then only, will he begin to show forth life, not necessarily as an some saints would desire, but patience is require so that that new life is not offended, and we be guilty of offending one of God's little one. Maybe more later.

 

[Mr GLee]

David, one must at least understand meaning of regeneration based upon Jesus' teaching in John 3 to call this experience regeneration, when it very well could have been a beginning of conversions to the truth, when either age, or hearing the gospel for the first time, (with their new ears, and eyes and a heart to receive) or even witnessing the gospel being lived out in submission to the truth, which we have scriptures to support all three.

I would be careful with the idea of experience regeneration. Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after (His only voice) would have personal experience as the validator of the truth of the Father, after what the eyes see .(no faith as it is written (sola scriptura)

The beginning of the ministry of the two dynamic dual. The son of man, Jesus seen and the Holy Father not seen, After sending Jesus out into the wildness as a scape goat (40 days starving to death).

Lucifer as Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after (as if it was true prophecy. sola scriptura) gave a false vision of bread to eat. showing Jesus every kingdom of this world and the stolen glory of all .

Three times with three used to denote the end of a matter the Holy Father in heaven gave words to his apostle Jesus to prophecy. . as it is written (sola scriptura) again and again as it is written

Struck him out never saw the faith ball "let there be". . coming .. Back to the bottomless dug out.(LOL)

Mathew 4:7-11 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him

 

[fastfredy0]

Ha! I almost said I have one for you —John Owen. But he was dead long before RC.

Oh, I like John Owen ... I was watching the Ligionaire group of 5ish guys answering questions and the following question came up: beside the Bible, what is your favorite book? R.C. Sproul said "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock. I've read the book and it is great. That is my favorite book besides the Bible too.

I never knew of a time when I was altogether without the Lord, contrary to those who remember being unregenerate.

Me too. Sounds like he interpreted the thread term "radical change" the way I did; no trumpets sounded or a divine voice or body trembling at time of regeneration.

I honestly don't know when I was regenerated. It may have been before anything I can remember, or it could have been today.

I don't think it was today ... giggle. That would be puzzling.

 

[Mr GLee]

Oh, I like John Owen ... I was watching the Ligionaire group of 5ish guys answering questions and the following question came up: beside the Bible, what is your favorite book? R.C. Sproul said "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock. I've read the book and it is great. That is my favorite book besides the Bible too.

Me too. Sounds like he interpreted the thread term "radical change" the way I did; no trumpets sounded or a divine voice or body trembling at time of regeneration.


I don't think it was today ... giggle. That would be puzzling.

A certain kind of identity today, radical born again .

Names written in a book from the foundation. The six days Christ did work. . we by grace enter that rest

Luke 23:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Hebrew 4:6-7 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

 

[Carbon]

I had gotten this from R.C. ministry site that he started in 1971.

Do regeneration and conversion take place at the same time?

THOMAS: Regeneration takes place at the level of the subconscious, and conversion takes place at the level of consciousness. Let me give you an example. My wife

www.ligonier.org

To many people when discussing these, Regeneration and conversion, think it's the same thing. But it is not.

 

[Carbon]

I had gotten this from R.C. ministry site that he started in 1971.

Do regeneration and conversion take place at the same time?

THOMAS: Regeneration takes place at the level of the subconscious, and conversion takes place at the level of consciousness. Let me give you an example. My wife

www.ligonier.org

Look at it this way. In Revelation 3:20 Jesus is speaking to the Church. He is knocking at the door, if anyone hears, they will open the door. Of course, it is only the elect, the believing/regenerated that truly hear. And the opening of the door is conversion.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. Rev 3.

 

[Josheb]

To many people when discussing these, Regeneration and conversion, think it's the same thing. But it is not.

Perhaps you would define the terms as you would like everyone else to understand them.

 

[Carbon]

Perhaps you would define the terms as you would like everyone else to understand them.

Sure. Brb grabbing a coffee.

 

[Carbon]

Perhaps you would define the terms as you would like everyone else to understand them.

Regeneration is the Holy Spirit quickening the spiritually dead into a new life and thus enabling them to believe and repent.
Conversion is when the regenerated soul begins to embrace Christ as Savior and to obey Him as Lord.

So, we have the saving work of the Holy Spirit in calling, and faith and conversion on man's part.