Is There a Contradiction?

[Viking123]

Not according to NT apostolic teaching. . .

We see in the light of the NT Heb 11:13c-16 that what the patriarchs said (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9; cf Lev 25:23, Dt 26:5)
showed that their hope in God's promise of an "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4) was
not a hope in earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10), but a hope in heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
For the patriarchs lived in the promised land as strangers in a foreign country, not possessing on earth the promised eternal inheritance ("everlasting possession," Heb 11:9), just as all believers live on earth as strangers in a foreign country, not yet possessing the same promised eternal inheritance of the heavenly city (Heb 11:16).

But although the patriarchs never possessed the earthly land, which was a type, they did possess the realities which the type signified (Col 2:17); i.e., eternal life in Christ (Heb 11:40). So that God did keep his promise to the patriarchs personally of an "everlasting possession" (Jn 11:25-26) and, therefore, God did not shame his name by breaking his promise to the patriarchs of an eternal land (everlasting possession, Heb 11:16).
The only land promises remaining are those to the church (Mt 5:5, Ro 4:13, 2 Pe 3:10, 13, Rev 21:1, 4-7), all believers (Ps 37:29),
of which Canaan was the type (Josh 24:13).

The hope in heaven was spoken to the little flock only. Not to the great crowd.

 

[Arial]

It says-God created the heavens and the Earth, Jesus is Gods son, not God. That is why the US at Gen 1:26= Jehovah( God) and his master worker( Jesus)Prov 8:30)--Verse 27= HE( not we) created-- Prov 8:27-28= HE( not we) created-Isaiah 40:26= HE( not we) created.
John 1:3--Things were created-THROUGH Jesus( Gods master worker) If done through = 100% another did it=God=Jehovah=the Father.
Isaiah 44:24--Jehovah created by myself= the only one with the power and wisdom to create. Myself= singular= HE( not we)

This is not Christian. It denies the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[makesends]

I have addressed your mantra many times. Are you going to answer my questions or continue to ignore them. See post #(191).

Your refusal to answer shows your inability to answer...shows the weakness of your position.

Lees

Bad logic. Even if what to you looks like a refusal to answer is indeed a refusal to answer, it doesn't necessarily demonstrate an inability to answer but only an unwillingness to answer. But what looks to you like a refusal to answer is not necessarily a refusal to answer, but perhaps an inability (or unwillingness) on your part to recognize that your opponent has in fact done so.

On second thought, it may even be a debating tactic on your part to convince the audience and moderator that @Eleanor has not done so, if they are as lazy as I am and didn't read the whole debate. For what it may be worth, overbearing overshouting intimidating shaming tactics don't usually work well on this site.

One last thing that seems to me quite likely, is that she may well be tired of dealing with you. If I was her, I would not be willing to go through the series of posts to demonstrate that you have not dealt with her questions and references to the level that she would consider intellectual integrity.

 

[CrowCross]

It says-God created the heavens and the Earth, Jesus is Gods son, not God. That is why the US at Gen 1:26= Jehovah( God) and his master worker( Jesus)Prov 8:30)--Verse 27= HE( not we) created-- Prov 8:27-28= HE( not we) created-Isaiah 40:26= HE( not we) created.
John 1:3--Things were created-THROUGH Jesus( Gods master worker) If done through = 100% another did it=God=Jehovah=the Father.
Isaiah 44:24--Jehovah created by myself= the only one with the power and wisdom to create. Myself= singular= HE( not we)

So, which is it???? Your god did the creating or Jesus actually did the creating as your gods master creator?

Need more???

All things were made by him; (Jesus) and without him was not any thing made that was made. Col 1:16 makes it pretty clear.

Who was the "us" in "let us make man in our image"? Who was the our?

 

[Viking123]

This is not Christian. It denies the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

Its undeniable bible facts that cannot be disproven in an iota that they are wrong.

 

[Viking123]

So, which is it???? Your god did the creating or Jesus actually did the creating as your gods master creator?

Need more???

All things were made by him; (Jesus) and without him was not any thing made that was made. Col 1:16 makes it pretty clear.

Who was the "us" in "let us make man in our image"? Who was the our?

Jesus worked- Jehovah God created everything. Jesus= God master worker, he gives God 100% credit for creating at Prov 8.

 

[JIM]

Is there a contradiction between these two verses?

Hebrews 9:27 BLB
And inasmuch as it is apportioned to men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for a second time, apart from sin, to those awaiting Him for salvation.

Hebrews 11:5 BLB
By faith Enoch was translated not to see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him up. For before the translation, he was commended to have pleased God.


The first verse states men is apportioned to die once but the second states Enoch did not see death. And if not, then how are these two verses reconciled so as not to contradict one another? Scripture elsewhere implies resurrection (in Christ) is the means of transformation unto eternal life. Jesus, who is the resurrection and the life without whom no one can reach the Father or have eternal life, and resurrection implies a receding death (if there is no death then from what might that person be raised or resurrected and thereby transformed into immortality or eternal life?). Assuming Enoch believed in Christ, how is it he was able to be translated (transformed?) without the apportioned death and judgment of Hebrews 9:27, and then be raised from that death (ala 1 Corinthians 15:36)?

Is Enoch physically, bodily, biologically in heaven? I don't think so.

Also, what does it mean that Enoch did not "see" death? It means that Enoch did not experience death. He did not go through the process of experiencing his physical body ceasing to function. Strangely enough, no one knows what that is, since once it happens, there is no way for the one to who it happened to explain it.

Finally, a contradiction is characterized by "A and not A". Thus Hebrews 11:5 is not really a contradiction of Hebrews 9:27; rather, it is an exception

 

[Josheb]

Is Enoch physically, bodily, biologically in heaven? I don't think so.

Where do you think he is? Or is that statement supposed to emphasize the physical, biological body, and it is that condition that is in question?

Also, what does it mean that Enoch did not "see" death?

Great question. What do you think that means?

It means that Enoch did not experience death. He did not go through the process of experiencing his physical body ceasing to function.

Got scripture for that?

Whether or not scripture is available to support that statement, what do you do with the fact death comes to all because all sin, death is the consequence of sin, and it is appointed for all humans to die and face judgment?

Strangely enough, no one knows what that is, since once it happens, there is no way for the one to who it happened to explain it.

Anecdotal reports would be meaningless if not inspired as revelation from God.

Finally, a contradiction is characterized by "A and not A". Thus Hebrews 11:5 is not really a contradiction of Hebrews 9:27; rather, it is an exception

Some have asserted that very position. Have you got scripture supporting the "exception to the rule," position, or do you think it self evident? Think about this question before answering because if Enoch is an exception to the rule then that rule necessarily applies to "all sin," and all die," and all face judgment. That, in turn, will have serious implications for core doctrines (like works can save a person and salvation is not solely by grace through faith).

• Where is Enoch now?
• What scripture supports the definition posted?
• What scripture(s) support the "exception to the rule" position?
• How does the exception-to-the-rule position negate all men sinning, and all men dying, and all men facing judgment?

Have you read through the thread (because much of this has already been covered)? Hope I do not have to ask multiple times.

 

[Eleanor]

I have addressed your mantra many times. Are you going to answer my questions or continue to ignore them. See post #(191).

Your refusal to answer shows your inability to answer...shows the weakness of your position.

Lees

Lotta' hat. . .no cowboy.

You handle the truth a little loosely. . .explains a lot.

Please give the post # where you have specifically addressed the Scriptures I have presented; e.g., those in post #196, following:

We see in the light of the NT Heb 11:13c-16 that what the patriarchs said (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9; cf Lev 25:23, Dt 26:5)
showed that their hope in God's promise of an "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4) was
not a hope in earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10), but a hope in heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
For the patriarchs lived in the promised land as strangers in a foreign country, not possessing on earth the promised eternal inheritance ("everlasting possession," Heb 11:9), just as all believers live on earth as strangers in a foreign country, not yet possessing the same promised eternal inheritance of the heavenly city (Heb 11:16).

But although the patriarchs never possessed the earthly land, which was a type, they did possess the realities which the type signified (Col 2:17); i.e., eternal life in Christ (Heb 11:40). So that God did keep his promise to the patriarchs personally of an "everlasting possession" (Jn 11:25-26) and, therefore, God did not shame his name by breaking his promise to the patriarchs of an eternal land (everlasting possession, Heb 11:16).
The only land promises remaining are those to the church (Mt 5:5, Ro 4:13, 2 Pe 3:10, 13, Rev 21:1, 4-7), all believers (Ps 37:29),
of which Canaan was the type (Josh 24:13).

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus worked- Jehovah God created everything. Jesus= God master worker, he gives God 100% credit for creating at Prov 8.

Yes, Jesus worked...did the creation. Thus making Jesus the creator.

You act ias if some god was sitting on His throne sipping on lemonade being fanned by angels or something when Jesus was creating.

You still didn't answer the question...Who was the "us" in "let us make man in our image"? Who was the our?

 

[CrowCross]

Its undeniable bible facts that cannot be disproven in an iota that they are wrong.

Why does the bible present the Father as God?
Why does the bible present Jesus as God?
Why does the bible present the Holy Spirit as God?

Why does the bible present the characteristics of the 3 mentioned above as well as the name, works, equality and so on as God?

 

[Lees]

Lotta' hat. . .no cowboy.

You handle the truth a little loosely. . .explains a lot.

Please give the post # where you have specifically addressed the Scriptures I have presented; e.g., those in post #196, following:

We see in the light of the NT Heb 11:13c-16 that what the patriarchs said (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9; cf Lev 25:23, Dt 26:5)
showed that their hope in God's promise of an "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4) was
not a hope in earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10), but a hope in heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
For the patriarchs lived in the promised land as strangers in a foreign country, not possessing on earth the promised eternal inheritance ("everlasting possession," Heb 11:9), just as all believers live on earth as strangers in a foreign country, not yet possessing the same promised eternal inheritance of the heavenly city (Heb 11:16).

But although the patriarchs never possessed the earthly land, which was a type, they did possess the realities which the type signified (Col 2:17); i.e., eternal life in Christ (Heb 11:40). So that God did keep his promise to the patriarchs personally of an "everlasting possession" (Jn 11:25-26) and, therefore, God did not shame his name by breaking his promise to the patriarchs of an eternal land (everlasting possession, Heb 11:16).
The only land promises remaining are those to the church (Mt 5:5, Ro 4:13, 2 Pe 3:10, 13, Rev 21:1, 4-7), all believers (Ps 37:29),
of which Canaan was the type (Josh 24:13).

Post #(159)---Addressed (Gen. 3:15) (Gen . 17:8) (Acts. 7:5) (Heb. 11:8-16) And then I asked you, did Jesus come to establish a heavenly kingdom on earth? No answer.

Post #(162)---Addressed (Acts 7:5)

Post #(164)---Further explanation.

Post #(182)---You asked me a ?. I answered.

Post #(183)---Addressed (Heb. 11:13-16) (Heb. 11:14) Repetitive verses as you can see. Also I asked you questions which you again refuse to answer.


Post #(189)---Many repetitive verses given again which were already explained. Any new verses added nothing new to what you were saying. You asked me if God did not keep his promise to Abram. I answered.

Post #(191)---You present repetitive verses again which have already been explained. I asked you to explain (Gen. 15:18-21). No answer. I asked you what does (Matt. 6:10) mean? No answer. I asked you, 'when God created the earth, was it part of heaven?' No answer. I asked you, 'when God creates the New Heaven and New Earth, will earth be part of heaven?' No answer.

Your post #(192)---Only repetitive statements already addressed.

Concerning what you present as what the 'patriarchs said', nothing is added to your argument.

You say God kept His promise. Yet (Heb. 11:39) says they did not receive the promise.

There are no land promises to the Church.

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

Lotta' hat. . .no cowboy.
You handle the truth a little loosely. . .explains a lot.
Please give the post # where you have specifically addressed the Scriptures I have presented; e.g., those in post #196, following:
We see in the light of the NT Heb 11:13c-16 that what the patriarchs said (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9; cf Lev 25:23, Dt 26:5)
showed that their hope in God's promise of an "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4) was
not a hope in earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10), but a hope in heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
For the patriarchs lived in the promised land as strangers in a foreign country, not possessing on earth the promised eternal inheritance ("everlasting possession," Heb 11:9), just as all believers live on earth as strangers in a foreign country, not yet possessing the same promised eternal inheritance of the heavenly city (Heb 11:16).
But although the patriarchs never possessed the earthly land, which was a type, they did possess the realities which the type signified (Col 2:17); i.e., eternal life in Christ (Heb 11:40). So that God did keep his promise to the patriarchs personally of an "everlasting possession" (Jn 11:25-26) and, therefore, God did not shame his name by breaking his promise to the patriarchs of an eternal land (everlasting possession, Heb 11:16).
The only land promises remaining are those to the church (Mt 5:5, Ro 4:13, 2 Pe 3:10, 13, Rev 21:1, 4-7), all believers (Ps 37:29),
of which Canaan was the type (Josh 24:13).

Post #(159)---Addressed (Gen. 3:15) (Gen . 17:8) (Acts. 7:5) (Heb. 11:8-16) And then I asked you, did Jesus come to establish a heavenly kingdom on earth? No answer.
Post #(162)---Addressed (Acts 7:5)
Post #(164)---Further explanation.
Post #(182)---You asked me a ?. I answered.
Post #(183)---Addressed (Heb. 11:13-16) (Heb. 11:14) Repetitive verses as you can see. Also I asked you questions which you again refuse to answer.
Post #(189)---Many repetitive verses given again which were already explained. Any new verses added nothing new to what you were saying. You asked me if God did not keep his promise to Abram. I answered.
Post #(191)---You present repetitive verses again which have already been explained. I asked you to explain (Gen. 15:18-21). No answer. I asked you what does (Matt. 6:10) mean? No answer. I asked you, 'when God created the earth, was it part of heaven?' No answer. I asked you, 'when God creates the New Heaven and New Earth, will earth be part of heaven?' No answer.
Your post #(192)---Only repetitive statements already addressed.
Concerning what you present as what the 'patriarchs said', nothing is added to your argument.
You say God kept His promise. Yet (Heb. 11:39) says they did not receive the promise.
There are no land promises to the Church.

Are you gonna' fish, or just cut bait?

Your list contains only two texts from my post #209 (above, repeat of #196) containing 25 texts to be addressed.

Not interested in your numbers game, in lieu of dealing with the 25 texts presented.

Lotta' hat. . .no cowboy.

 

[JIM]

Where do you think he is?

Why don't you answer the question if you can?

Great question. What do you think that means?

Why ask that question and then follow it with my answer?

Got scripture for that?

Of course not.

Whether or not scripture is available to support that statement, what do you do with the fact death comes to all because all sin, death is the consequence of sin, and it is appointed for all humans to die and face judgment?

No physical death is not the consequence of sin. It is a consequence of creation. (Gen 3"22)

Anecdotal reports would be meaningless if not inspired as revelation from God.

Then pretty much everything posted in forums such as this are meaningless, including just about every reply you have entered in response to my posts.

Hope I do not have to ask multiple times.

@Josheb, I am almost positive you do not have to do anything you do not want to do.

 

[Josheb]

Why don't you answer the question if you can?

Read the thread.

Why ask that question and then follow it with my answer?

To highlight the already provided answer, that is why.

Of course not.

Then that is a scripture-less claim, but I do thank you for answering the question asked directly and concisely when asked. Too bad that is not generally the case.

No physical death is not the consequence of sin. It is a consequence of creation. (Gen 3"22)

I agree, and nothing I posted should be construed to say otherwise, and often have I asserted and defended that position elsewhere. Thank you again for being a little more forthcoming about your position and thoughts thereof. I'd like to read more of that and less obfuscation.

Then pretty much everything posted in forums such as this are meaningless, including just about every reply you have entered in response to my posts.

Incorrect. any individual's perspective that is supported by well-rendered scripture is categorically different than personal opinions without scriptural basis. Even personal experience must bow to the authority of scripture. Perhaps the just expressed failure understanding that difference is part of the problem to be solved.

@Josheb, I am almost positive you do not have to do anything you do not want to do.

Tell that to Nebuchadnezzar.

 

[Lees]

Are you gonna' fish, or just cut bait?

Your list contains only two texts from my post #209 (above, repeat of #196) containing 25 texts to be addressed.

Not interested in your numbers game, in lieu of dealing with the 25 texts presented.

Lotta' hat. . .no cowboy.

You're the one that asked for the posts. Strange you're not interested.

I already told you, nothing you present as to what the 'patriarchs said' adds anything to your argument. See post #(212).

Now, will you answer all the questions you have refused to answer?

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

Are you gonna' fish, or just cut bait?

Your list contains only two texts from my post #209 (above, repeat of #196) containing 25 texts to be addressed.

Not interested in your numbers game, in lieu of dealing with the 25 texts presented.

You're the one that asked for the posts. Strange you're not interested.

I already told you, nothing you present as to what the 'patriarchs said' adds anything to your argument. See post #(212).

That's simply an assertion, and failure of a Biblically demonstrated refutation.

Not interested in just cuttin' bait. . .

 

[Lees]

That's an assertion, and a failure of Biblically demonstrated refutation.

No, you need to list each verse and show how it adds something new to your argument. Then I will address it. They are your list...do you not know? Are you just wanting me to do your work?

So, list each one and show me something new that I haven't addressed. I have already told you they don't.

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

No, you need to list each verse and show how it adds something new to your argument.

Their contradictions of and refutations of your argument speak for themselves. . .they don't need my explanation.

Then I will address it. They are your list...do you not know? Are you just wanting me to do your work?

So, list each one and show me something new that I haven't addressed. I have already told you they don't.

Lees

Talk is cheap. . .

Until you Biblically demonstrate that "they don't," you're just cuttin' bait.

Not interested in just cuttin' bait. . .

 

[Lees]

Their refutations of your argument speak for themselves. . .they don't need my explanation.

Talk is cheap. . .

You're just cuttin' bait until you Biblically demonstrate that "they don't."

Not interested in just cuttin' bait. . .

List your verses and show me how they add something I haven't already addressed.

Then go back and answer the questions you continue to ignore.

You know why people refuse to answer the questions? They haven't done the work. They simply provide what's been told them. But when you do the work, you can field the questions because you encounter them as you study. I think you're a mouth piece for others.

But, surprise me.

Lees