something like scales fell from his eyes

[Josheb]

Regeneration is the Holy Spirit quickening the spiritually dead into a new life and thus enabling them to believe and repent.
Conversion is when the regenerated soul begins to embrace Christ as Savior and to obey Him as Lord.

So, we have the saving work of the Holy Spirit in calling, and faith and conversion on man's part.

And what do you think of having been brought from death to life? Is that a conversion? If so, then is that conversion a different kind of conversion than beginning to embrace Christ as Savior and obeying him as Lord?

 

[Carbon]

And what do you think of having been brought from death to life? Is that a conversion? If so, then is that conversion a different kind of conversion than beginning to embrace Christ as Savior and obeying him as Lord?

Do you not understand what I wrote?

 

[Josheb]

Do you not understand what I wrote?

Yes. Why do you ask?

Do you understand what I asked (because it is directly related to your definition of regeneration)?

 

[Carbon]

Yes. Why do you ask?

Do you understand what I asked (because it is directly related to your definition of regeneration)?

Well, if you understand what I wrote, it should answer your questions. I would think.

 

[Josheb]

Well, if you understand what I wrote, it should answer your questions. I would think.

It does not answer my question.

The word "convert" (verb) to change in form, character, or function. Conversion is, therefore, the process of changing or causing something to change from one form to another. Prior to regeneration a person is dead in sin. After regeneration they are dead to sin and alive in Christ. They have been brought from death to life. They have been changed from one form (dead) to another (life). Yet I read regeneration is not conversion; regeneration is "the Holy Spirit quickening the spiritually dead into a new life," and I am refused an answer to whether or not that is a conversion, and whether or not there are two conversions. How is it the dead quickened into new life is not a change in form, character or function?

Can you also provide me with a passage from scripture stating such thing as "spiritual death" exists? Maybe perhaps explain what that term means, exactly, in the context of this op? Thx

 

[Carbon]

It does not answer my question.

Would you perhaps think about it for a little while? I think then you may see the answer to your question.

 

[Mr GLee]

Regeneration is the Holy Spirit quickening the spiritually dead into a new life and thus enabling them to believe and repent.
Conversion is when the regenerated soul begins to embrace Christ as Savior and to obey Him as Lord.

So, we have the saving work of the Holy Spirit in calling, and faith and conversion on man's part.

I would offer

Repentance not regret is a two fold work or labor of love of the Spirit of Christ. that works in and with Christians. Working to first turn us who have no ears to hear him. . . our first love. giving us ears . then after hearing His voice we in turn can turn to him, then realize how foolish and childish we can be assuring our self of his loving discipline . Repent also meaning to comfort,

Jeremiah 31:18-19 King James VersionI have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Revelation 2:2-7 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.(Hearing and moving to beleive) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Conversion is the born again regenerator. Christians receive the fullness of his faith as a labor of his love from the first hearing. Not a remnant of grace. (Limbo Purgatory )

I would offer the prophecy in 1 Peter ..

1 Peter 1:8-10-11 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your (new born again ) faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow

We can look back by the Holy Spirit of faith just as they looked ahead. the prohecy suffering before hand the fulfilment of it as it is written working mutually in all believers

 

[Josheb]

Would you perhaps think about it for a little while? I think then you may see the answer to your question.

While I'm thinking about it would you mind 1) estimating how long it takes a regenerated soul to begin embracing Christ as Savior and to obey Him as Lord, and 2) telling me the source for those definitions of regeneration and conversion?

 

[makesends]

To many people when discussing these, Regeneration and conversion, think it's the same thing. But it is not.

FWIW, It may be worth defining at the outset, to mitigate arguments, just what is meant by conversion. Look at all the cases of conversion from one religion to another. They are worth calling conversion, though not from death to life. @Josheb has been working on one here, that is different, I think, from what you have been talking about, although, granted, what you've been talking about as separate from regeneration is still also dependent on regeneration, or it doesn't happen.

 

[Josheb]

FWIW, It may be worth defining at the outset, to mitigate arguments, just what is meant by conversion. Look at all the cases of conversion from one religion to another. They are worth calling conversion, though not from death to life. @Josheb has been working on one here, that is different, I think, from what you have been talking about, although, granted, what you've been talking about as separate from regeneration is still also dependent on regeneration, or it doesn't happen.

Yep. The difference may be as simple as the instantaneous change, or transformation, or conversion that occurs at regeneration (being brought from death to life, or dead in sin to alive in Christ) followed by the ongoing effect of regeneration whereby acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior occurs, embracing that reality, and growing in obedience result. Understood that way, regeneration has an immediate effect with ongoing effect. It is not a once done, clap your hands because it's all done so let's move on kind of event. We are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Many of salvation's constituent elements are like that.

 

[Red Baker]

Regeneration (the new birth) is the root while conversion (repentance from sin and faith in Jesus) is the fruit.

estimating how long it takes a regenerated soul to begin embracing Christ as Savior and to obey Him

A very fair question, one that there's no scripture answering that question precisely. Many factors may have a bearing concerning each induvial conversion to the truth, and time it may take for such conversion. Some of the very elect may never be converted to blessed truth with a full understanding that Christ is indeed the end of the law for righteousness ~ but only those who fully embrace that truth without adding their own works in some manner to the redemption that Jesus secured for God's elect.

Many fear God and have a godly zeal for him, maybe even greater than those few who have come to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ~which gospel declares that the righteousness of God is upon those who believe totally that Jesus secured this righteousness for them by his faith and obedience alone, not by any act done by them, even their faith, repentances and baptism, etc.

There are examples for us in the scriptures concerning the very elect, yet not converted, for who Paul prayed for, and so should we.

I gave Nicodemus in one of the thread last week showing that he was regenerated, yet we have no proof of him ever leaving the Pharisees, for whatever reason it is kept from us.

Also consider:

Romans 10:1-3~"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.​

Many corrupt Paul’s desire and prayer by missing or rejecting elect (II Tim 2:10; II The 3:1-2). Many corrupt Israel as national Israel, Jews, God’s chosen people, ignoring 9:6 and following. Many corrupt salvation as from sin and condemnation to eternal heaven, missing gospel conversion here. Ignoring the context of election within Israel established by Paul in the previous chapter is a travesty. This cannot be national or natural Israel without qualification, for such was already rejected.

My heart’s desire.​

Paul introduced his heart’s desire in very strong language opening this section of Romans (9:1-3). He passed from considering God’s sovereign choices to man’s response to the gospel (9:30-33). The Gentiles had faith in Christ that the Jews generally did not for their offence at Jesus Christ.

Paul had a heart for evangelism, the conversion of unbelieving elect, second to none in the Bible.

His heart’s desire should not be confused to be any different than his great labors (II Timothy 2:10).

Paul endured all the things that he did for the elect’s sakes – he did not seek to add to the elect.

There are two matters in this verse indicated by also and with. Compare with in James 2:1. His purpose was to help them obtain gospel salvation (conversion) along with eternal glory.

God guaranteed eternal glory through the surety Jesus Christ (Rom 8:28-39; John 10:26-29).

Romans 10:1 is a popular verse Arminians use for proselytizing for heaven (Matt 23:15), because they always prefer a sound bite rather than find out the real sense of what Paul wrote. It is impossible that Paul desired those without God’s mercy to will and run for it (9:15-16)! But Paul, and us as well, should labor and endure opposition to see them converted to the truth.

Paul had certain confident expectation that every one of the elect would surely be saved (8:28-39), thus his heart’s desire must be for something other than eternal life for these children of God.

And prayer to God.​

Prayer to God, coupled with his heart’s desire, indicates a matter yet uncertain by God’s blessing.

He did not pray for an Israel to be saved from the lake of fire to heaven’s glory for several reasons. There was no possibility or uncertainty at all regarding the glorification of the elect (8:28-39). He had argued in no uncertain terms that eternal glory was God’s sovereign choice (9:6-24). He had declared, illustrated, and proved sovereign election of God’s children in such terms that there was no room for doubt or uncertainty that they would be saved and the rest could not be. There is not the slightest possibility Paul prayed against the Potter’s will and works (9:20-24). How and why would he pray for vessels of wrath God was enduring until the day of judgment? How and why would he pray for those fitted to destruction and unable to believe the gospel? How and why would he pray against decrees of God just like those under the O.T. (9:25-29)?

But he could and would pray for elect Israel to be saved from stumbling over Christ (9:31-33)! Ordinary ministers pray for salvation not knowing God’s will, but this cannot be true of Paul. Paul knew God’s will intimately, especially in Jew-Gentile matters, and he had explained it.
It is impossible he prayed contrary to God’s will he knew (II Cor 12:8-9; I Jn 5:14; Rom 8:27).

For Israel is.​

The Israel here must be the Israel identified thus far in Paul’s argument – the elect Israel of God. Think! Is the wise and careful apostle burdened and praying for those that were not Israel (9:6)? It is a travesty of Bible interpretation to ignore Paul’s work so far and make this national Israel. Regarding election and reprobation within national Israel, Paul had declared it (9:6), illustrated it (9:7-13), proved it (9:14-24), confirmed it (9:25-29), and applied it to the gospel (9:30-33). Having made the distinction, Paul would not have tried to save those God purposed not to save! Depending on which Israel you make this determines which salvation you will then have to use. From the start, Paul had identified an elect Israel distinct from national Israel as his argument (9:6). As shown there, the issue was one of salvation as the children of God, not national blessings. With such a clear distinction declared, illustrated, proven, confirmed, and applied, we honor it.

The following context of this verse proves it to be elect Israel as does the entire preceding context. He formally testified that this Israel had a zeal of God, an important trait untrue of reprobates. If this zeal of God is subjective-genitive (God’s own zeal), they can only be elect Israelites. If this zeal of God is objective-genitive (their zeal for God), they can only be elect Israelites. If this is merely national Israel’s vain ceremonial worship, Paul made much of what John and Jesus condemned about the same people (Matt 3:7-12; Mark 7:6-13; John 5:42; 8:44). Paul in other places condemned Jewish religion as vanity (Ac 13:46; Gal 6:13; I Thess 2:14-16).

Coming back to keep from being so long. Maybe two more post needed.

 

[Carbon]

While I'm thinking about it would you mind 1) estimating how long it takes a regenerated soul to begin embracing Christ as Savior and to obey Him as Lord, and 2) telling me the source for those definitions of regeneration and conversion?

No I would rather not
I’m surprised you don’t have these answers.

 

[Carbon]

No I would rather not
I’m surprised you don’t have these answers.

@Josheb
But be all means please, give your understanding do we can understand how you understand these things. And if you will, give the biblical understanding.

Thanks

 

[Red Baker]

That they might be saved.
The salvation here might occur, as it was only a possibility through Paul’s desire, prayer, and labor.

God’s election is absolutely and eternally certain, and not a single elect can or will be lost, which Paul had established beyond any doubt before he addressed the issue of Israel (8:28-39). Nowhere in scripture do we read of a heart’s desire or prayer to God for election of any, which is God’s work alone, and Paul had already ascribed it to the will of the Potter alone (9:15-24). Paul will use very similar language in the following chapter about the same persons (11:14), where again it can be easily discerned that he wrote of a salvation possibility, not a certainty. It is impossible Paul would desire or pray for a thing certain, especially eternal life for the elect. As we shall see, conversion is the salvation here, and it varies greatly among the elect of God. We know the objects of Paul’s desire and prayer to be elect Israel, as proven earlier in this verse. It was for elect Israelites that Paul endured all things for gospel conversion (II Timothy 2:10).

Consider that Paul had once been like them – elect and zealous but ignorant of Jesus Christ. Or will you foolishly assume with most that Paul thought he could work faith in those Jews that Jesus said would not be moved even by a man coming back from the dead (Luke 16:31)?

The salvation here is conversion, which we call the practical phase of salvation through the gospel.

The ordo salutis of salvation has long been forgotten and overlooked by nearly all believers. God will infallibly save His elect through election, justification, regeneration, and glorification.

The only salvation with any uncertainty is gospel conversion to the full knowledge of the truth.

Gospel conversion is the educational process by which a person learns what Jesus has done for him and what he can in turn do for Jesus – it is a lifelong matter of conforming to Jesus Christ. However, the gospel conversion of His elect to the true knowledge of salvation varies greatly.

Paul will further described in the verses that follow that they need salvation from ignorance to truth. Paul testified that elect Israel had a zeal of God but without correct knowledge for it (10:2). Their ignorance of God’s righteousness in Christ left them merely seeking for their own (10:3). With proper knowledge, they could learn that Jesus Christ fulfilled and ended the Law (10:4). Leaving the impossibility of justification by Law works, they could rest in Christ’s work (10:5).

The practical phase of salvation – conversion by the gospel – is missed by most all Bible readers. The gospel of Christ only benefits believers (1:16-17), and Paul sought this for elect Israel.

Most foolishly assume that the word save in any form must refer to deliverance from hell fire, so they miss any distinction or difference from this one and only concept of salvation they see. Yet the Bible has many references to salvation, which means deliverance, from things other than the lake of fire (Ps 34:6; 116:8; Jonah 2:9; Acts 2:40; 2n Tim 3:11; James 5:15; Jude 1:5). Gospel salvation is a very real phase of salvation beyond Christ’s legal work and the Spirit’s vital work and before final glorification (Ist Cor 15:2; I Tim 4:16; James 5:19-20; Ist Pet 3:21).

It is the gospel that brings us the glad tidings and glorious news of salvation with many benefits.

1. The gospel saves the elect from ignorance to truth by knowledge (2nd Tim 1:10; Eph 4:13-14).
2. The gospel saves the elect to personal assurance of eternal life (Ist Thess 1:4-7; Ist John 5:13).
3. The gospel saves the elect to knowing what God requires of them (Acts 10:6; Ist Cor 11:1-2).
4. The gospel saves the elect to fellowship with God and men (Ist John 1:1-5; Phil 1:3-5; 2:1-2).
5. The gospel saves the elect from God’s judgment for sin (Heb 12:6-8; Ist Cor 11:29-31; Rev 3:5).
6. The gospel saves the elect to peace and soul rest (Matthew 11:28-30; Heb 4:7-11; Rom 15:13).
7. The gospel saves the elect to prosperity and success in life (Prov 3:1-4; Ps 1:1-3; Matt 10:39).
8. Remember that Paul’s method of evangelism was to visit foreign synagogues to find God-fearers. At Thessalonica, Luke recorded Paul’s usual evangelistic approach in a new city (Acts 17:1-5) It was this approach that led to his first recorded sermon in Antioch of Pisidia (Acts 13:14-52).

More to come...​

 

[Red Baker]

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.​

For I bear them record.​

As in the previous verse and in his argument from the beginning of chapter nine, this is elect Israel.

1. If we say national Israel, as most, what was Paul’s purpose to strongly distinguish two Israel’s?
2. If we say national Israel, as most, then Paul credited spiritual virtue to depraved reprobates.
3. If we say national Israel, as most, Paul ascribed godly honor to the Potter’s vessels of dishonor.
4. If we say national Israel, as most, then they were capable of conversion, contrary to Ist Peter 2:8.
5. Paul, an apostle, able to discern spirits, and with prophetic power, gave true witness of elect Israel.

That they have a zeal of God.​

Paul formally testified that this Israel had a zeal of God, an important trait untrue of reprobates.

While some may have zeal for religion e.g. the prophets of Baal, this is not truly a zeal of God. If this zeal of God is subjective-genitive (God’s own zeal), they can only be elect Israelites. If this zeal of God is objective-genitive (their zeal for God), they can only be elect Israelites. If this is merely national Israel’s vain zeal for ceremonial worship, Paul made much of what John and Jesus condemned about the same people (Matt 3:7-12; Mark 7:6-13; John 5:42; 8:44). Paul in other places condemned Jewish religion as vanity (Acts 13:46; Gal 6:13; I Thess 2:14-16). We reject that Paul here commended the hypocritical Jewish infatuation with temple worship. Why would Paul commend the hypocrisy Jesus had ripped over and over? Read Matthew 23. Why would Paul praise the zeal, if this were reprobate Israel? How would the argument follow? Paul’s argument is that this was God’s Israel, evidenced by zeal, but they needed knowledge. This description is closely connected to Paul’s desire for their salvation, as he was once like them. Before Paul was converted on the road to Damascus, he had great zeal (Acts 22:3; Phil 3:6). Due to his ignorance (compare verse 3), he was very contrary to Jesus of Nazareth (Acts 26:9). God showed him mercy for his ignorant blaspheming and injurious persecution (Ist Tim 1:13). God counted Paul faithful before Damascus and chose him for apostle due to it (Ist Tim 1:12). Paul commended his pure conscience before and after conversion (Acts 23:1; 24:16; 2n Tim 1:3). Paul knew all about great zeal for God while ignorant of Jesus Christ and His finished work. Obviously, from the above points and others, Paul was an unconverted elect Israelite like these. Remember that Paul’s method of evangelism was to visit foreign synagogues to find God-fearers. At Thessalonica, Luke recorded Paul’s usual evangelistic approach in a new city (Acts 17:1-5). It was this approach that led to his first recorded sermon in Antioch of Pisidia (Acts 13:14-52). If there was not a synagogue in a city, then Paul would find prayers to Jehovah (Acts 16:13). In these and other cities, the gospel of Jesus Christ made a severe division among the Jews.

But not according to knowledge.​

The key issue here, stated clearly in verses 1-5, is elect Israel’s ignorance, or lack of knowledge. There is nothing here at all about getting them elected, justified, or regenerated. God forbid! Conversion is the educational process to change from a state of ignorance to one of knowledge. The only thing Paul had to change was their knowledge, not their hearts, wills, or zeal. There is nothing here at all about getting them born again, quickened, regenerated, or renewed. The zeal of elect Israel was of God, but they directed it toward Moses’ Law and away from Christ. The purpose of the gospel is to bring knowledge of God to those ignorant of it, but it only benefits the elect (2n Tim 1:10; 2:10; Titus 1:1-3; Eph 1:17; Ist Cor 1:18-24; 2nd Cor 4:3-7; 10:4-6; 2nd Pet 2:20). How many elect are there in other churches and denominations worshipping without knowledge? Such elect are worshipping in bondage due to the fear of death through ignorance of the truth. Just like Galatian saints that fell from grace in knowledge, these did not know grace (Gal 5:4).

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.​

For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness.​

What a glorious thing to be ignorant about! What a terrible ignorance to miss such a glorious thing! It was not that they did not know God was righteous, but rather how to stand righteous before Him. It is simple statements like this needing to be rightly divided that remind us of 2nd Timothy 2:15. The Jews were not ignorant of God’s righteousness; they were ignorant of how God justified. They had not heard or believed the gospel that explained God made men righteous by Christ.

And going about to establish their own righteousness.​

Due to Israel’s ignorant confidence in the Law, they thought they could be righteous before God. But this vain idea was altogether impossible, for Moses’ Law merely proved universal depravity. Paul had already thoroughly established there were none righteous, no, not one (Rom 3:9-18). He had also identified the Law as a vehicle to condemn men (Rom 3:19-20; 5:20-21; 7:5-23). The Law was so strict that it condemned any who fell short of perfection (Gal 3:10; James 2:10).

Have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.​

Proves this is our practical salvation, something we have part in as well as the will of man preaching its truths to us! As Paul had himself, they kicked against the gospel pricks and would not submit to Jesus Christ. Opposed to hard labor to justify oneself, gospel faith stops work and trusts Christ’s finished work. There is glorious rest in the gospel of Christ for those who stop working and believe (Heb 4:1-11). This rest is not heaven, and the way to get it is not regeneration – it is the gospel rest of conversion. Selah.

 

[Red Baker]

We are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Many of salvation's constituent elements are like that.

Amen~plus we were at the cross legally speaking~and to add to that, grace and mercy given to us before the foundation of the world.

 

[Josheb]

No I would rather not

Okay

I’m surprised you don’t have these answers.

How would I possibly know any other posters answers unless they posted them? I have my own answers to the question, but I wasn't the one authoring the op and commenting regeneration and conversion are two different things. I was endeavoring to better understand your pov, and only you can explain that. The matter of regeneration and conversion being different has come up before in other threads, but I don't recall ever reading an explanation or definition of the terms.

So, I asked.

@Josheb
But be all means please, give your understanding [so] we can understand how you understand these things

I did.

. And if you will, give the biblical understanding.

Thanks

Sure. I cannot tarry long enough to expound at length (although what follows may seem long) but, as I said in Post 70, the matter could simply be regeneration being the initiation of an ongoing process that I consider one ongoing event or process, and you consider two separate but causally related events. The aforementioned being brought from death to life would be an example. The concept is spoken of in a couple of places by John 5:24 would be a notable example.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Having passed from death (dead in sin) to life (alive in Christ) we hear Christ's word, have eternal life, and don't come under judgment (although I believe condemnation would be a better rendering, because we all get judged). Paul thusly exhorts his readers,

Romans 6:8-14
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Adn, by way of addendum, I refrain from using the phrase "spiritual death" because it's not found in scripture and there's no such thing as a person with a dead spirit in the Bible. We're dead in sin. We don't have a spirit that is literally dead and without clarification the phrase can be misleading.


And, of course, all of this has the already/not-yet condition common in Reformed thinking because we're already dead to sin (Rom. 6:11), already dead with Christ (Rom. 6:8; Col. 2:20, and alive in Christ (Rom. 6:11; 1 Cor. 15:22; Eph. 2:5) but when we physically die, are raised from the grave and transformed by that resurrection we will, again, pass from death to life..... but on that occasion, we will do so incorruptibly and immortally (1 Cor. 15:42 & 52-54), reaping the promised eternal life for which we all hope (Gal. 6:8). Our regeneration ("palingenesias," our rebirth and/or renewal) is a life-changing event with inescapable causal repercussions that persist from the moment of the new birth from above through the grave to eternity.

Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of his glory, by the exertion of the power that he has even to subject all things to himself.

Which is the main point of it all.

When scripture speaks of someone's "conversion" that necessarily refers to their having been regenerated or having received the new birth from above.

Acts 15:3
Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.

Those Gentiles continued to go through a process of conversion by which they are changed or transformed in many ways, but they had been converted (that's why they're called "converts" ). Therefore, regeneration and conversion are two terms for the same enduring event in which we are born anew from above, thereby brought from death to life, renewed and forever changed in an irrevocable and persistent manner.

Paul was regenerated, having been brought from dead in sin to alive in Christ and part of the process converting him from death to life was the resulting scales falling from his eyes. God was not done with Him, however, and God continued to regenerate, renew, transform Paul over the course of what remained of his earthly life (at the end of which he was, again, brought from death to life in fulfillment of what had begun in palingenesias.

 

[Carbon]

Okay

How would I possibly know any other posters answers unless they posted them? I have my own answers to the question, but I wasn't the one authoring the op and commenting regeneration and conversion are two different things. I was endeavoring to better understand your pov, and only you can explain that. The matter of regeneration and conversion being different has come up before in other threads, but I don't recall ever reading an explanation or definition of the terms.

So, I asked.

I did.

Sure. I cannot tarry long enough to expound at length (although what follows may seem long) but, as I said in Post 70, the matter could simply be regeneration being the initiation of an ongoing process that I consider one ongoing event or process, and you consider two separate but causally related events. The aforementioned being brought from death to life would be an example. The concept is spoken of in a couple of places by John 5:24 would be a notable example.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Having passed from death (dead in sin) to life (alive in Christ) we hear Christ's word, have eternal life, and don't come under judgment (although I believe condemnation would be a better rendering, because we all get judged). Paul thusly exhorts his readers,

Romans 6:8-14
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Adn, by way of addendum, I refrain from using the phrase "spiritual death" because it's not found in scripture and there's no such thing as a person with a dead spirit in the Bible. We're dead in sin. We don't have a spirit that is literally dead and without clarification the phrase can be misleading.


And, of course, all of this has the already/not-yet condition common in Reformed thinking because we're already dead to sin (Rom. 6:11), already dead with Christ (Rom. 6:8; Col. 2:20, and alive in Christ (Rom. 6:11; 1 Cor. 15:22; Eph. 2:5) but when we physically die, are raised from the grave and transformed by that resurrection we will, again, pass from death to life..... but on that occasion, we will do so incorruptibly and immortally (1 Cor. 15:42 & 52-54), reaping the promised eternal life for which we all hope (Gal. 6:8). Our regeneration ("palingenesias," our rebirth and/or renewal) is a life-changing event with inescapable causal repercussions that persist from the moment of the new birth from above through the grave to eternity.

Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of his glory, by the exertion of the power that he has even to subject all things to himself.

Which is the main point of it all.

When scripture speaks of someone's "conversion" that necessarily refers to their having been regenerated or having received the new birth from above.

Acts 15:3
Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.

Those Gentiles continued to go through a process of conversion by which they are changed or transformed in many ways, but they had been converted (that's why they're called "converts" ). Therefore, regeneration and conversion are two terms for the same enduring event in which we are born anew from above, thereby brought from death to life, renewed and forever changed in an irrevocable and persistent manner.

Paul was regenerated, having been brought from dead in sin to alive in Christ and part of the process converting him from death to life was the resulting scales falling from his eyes. God was not done with Him, however, and God continued to regenerate, renew, transform Paul over the course of what remained of his earthly life (at the end of which he was, again, brought from death to life in fulfillment of what had begun in palingenesias.

New er theologians fdont seem to separate them as much as the old dead (puritans and reformers) guys did.

 

[Carbon]

Okay

How would I possibly know any other posters answers unless they posted them? I have my own answers to the question, but I wasn't the one authoring the op and commenting regeneration and conversion are two different things. I was endeavoring to better understand your pov, and only you can explain that. The matter of regeneration and conversion being different has come up before in other threads, but I don't recall ever reading an explanation or definition of the terms.

So, I asked.

I did.

Sure. I cannot tarry long enough to expound at length (although what follows may seem long) but, as I said in Post 70, the matter could simply be regeneration being the initiation of an ongoing process that I consider one ongoing event or process, and you consider two separate but causally related events. The aforementioned being brought from death to life would be an example. The concept is spoken of in a couple of places by John 5:24 would be a notable example.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears my word, and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Having passed from death (dead in sin) to life (alive in Christ) we hear Christ's word, have eternal life, and don't come under judgment (although I believe condemnation would be a better rendering, because we all get judged). Paul thusly exhorts his readers,

Romans 6:8-14
Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life that he lives, he lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


Adn, by way of addendum, I refrain from using the phrase "spiritual death" because it's not found in scripture and there's no such thing as a person with a dead spirit in the Bible. We're dead in sin. We don't have a spirit that is literally dead and without clarification the phrase can be misleading.


And, of course, all of this has the already/not-yet condition common in Reformed thinking because we're already dead to sin (Rom. 6:11), already dead with Christ (Rom. 6:8; Col. 2:20, and alive in Christ (Rom. 6:11; 1 Cor. 15:22; Eph. 2:5) but when we physically die, are raised from the grave and transformed by that resurrection we will, again, pass from death to life..... but on that occasion, we will do so incorruptibly and immortally (1 Cor. 15:42 & 52-54), reaping the promised eternal life for which we all hope (Gal. 6:8). Our regeneration ("palingenesias," our rebirth and/or renewal) is a life-changing event with inescapable causal repercussions that persist from the moment of the new birth from above through the grave to eternity.

Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of his glory, by the exertion of the power that he has even to subject all things to himself.

Which is the main point of it all.

When scripture speaks of someone's "conversion" that necessarily refers to their having been regenerated or having received the new birth from above.

Acts 15:3
Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.

Those Gentiles continued to go through a process of conversion by which they are changed or transformed in many ways, but they had been converted (that's why they're called "converts" ). Therefore, regeneration and conversion are two terms for the same enduring event in which we are born anew from above, thereby brought from death to life, renewed and forever changed in an irrevocable and persistent manner.

Paul was regenerated, having been brought from dead in sin to alive in Christ and part of the process converting him from death to life was the resulting scales falling from his eyes. God was not done with Him, however, and God continued to regenerate, renew, transform Paul over the course of what remained of his earthly life (at the end of which he was, again, brought from death to life in fulfillment of what had begun in palingenesias.

Newer theologians don't seem to separate ("emphasize) them as much as the old dead (puritans and reformers) guys did.

 

[Josheb]

Newer theologians don't seem to separate ("emphasize) them as much as the old dead (puritans and reformers) guys did.

Relevance?

That may be correct, but my inquiry was of your views, not that of the Reformers or the Puritans. It's your op. While it was @Red Baker's appeal to Burk Parson that prompted the comment, and it was he who said, "one must at least understand meaning of regeneration based upon Jesus' teaching in John 3 to call this experience regeneration," it was you who said, "To many people when discussing these, Regeneration and conversion, think it's the same thing. But it is not." My suggestion the terms be defined and then the definition be clarified was an effort to support the op relevant to scales (or something like scales) falling from Paul's eyes at his..... conversion (was it his conversion or was it his regeneration? Or both? Or was it a new birth sans regeneration, and/or conversion?).

Am I to now understand we're to shift to the Reformers' and Puritans' views of regeneration and/or conversion?

After Regeneration, is there a new kind of knowing? Paul's conversion is recorded like this:
And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; Acts 9:18.

[Link to Red's prior post]

Personally, I believe true grace brings a new knowing. The mind is enlightened with new thoughts. That old saying, holy affections are not heat without light. They always arise from new information - spiritual instruction that was previously unknown or is now seen in a new light.

I agree as some say, is a gradual process, but this is the working out what God put in. However, I believe from the new birth, we see all things as new. Though, we may not realize all things right away.

There is most definitely a new kind of knowing subsequent to regeneration, and would further assert it is not merely subsequent, but also causally consequent. Although regeneration must be inferred to have occurred in Acts 9's account of Paul's..... experience , I believe that inference valid, correct, and justifiable by means of whole scripture. Likewise, grace (at least through Spirit-driven regeneration) bring new knowing, not just a new way of knowing. The mind is enlightened with know knowledge, new thoughts, and new ways of thinking. We have, as scripture elsewhere puts it, the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) and a mind of Spirit (Rom. 8:6,8) juxtaposed against the mind of flesh, the former begetting life and peace, the former begetting hostility and death. The spiritual man is able to judge all things, and I am sure that moment when the scales fell Paul was shocked, alarmed to suddenly realize everything he thought he knew and much of his prior way of knowing was wrong, and not just wrong but heretically lawless, unrighteous, faithless and, in a word, sinful. I can imagine Ananias embracing Paul while telling him, "Welcome to the club . Now let us rejoice God has seen fit to drag us in our ignorance unto Himself."

Paul never saw anything the same again.

And, while I do not know with certainty, I am very confident Paul knew everything had changed. I am inclined to disagree with the assertion no one can know the hour in which regeneration took place. Perhaps some, maybe even many cannot because their conversion is not as dramatic as Paul's.


I think Paul was born anew from above, regenerated, brought from death to life, transformed from dead-in-sin to dead-to-sin-and-alive-in-Christ in the moment Ananias laid hands on him, and the scales were simply incompatible with the results. It could be the scales' falling is supposed to be understood as the means of new sight/knowing, but I am inclined toward their fall caused by change, not their fall causing change. I say this because the text then reports Paul regained his sight, got up, was baptized, and ate. Had he died believing but still blind before the scales fell then he, like the thief on the cross, would have been saved. That he stayed several days with the disciples without conspiring to kill them , is remarkable. Imagine Thomas Matthew Crooks dining with Trump after plotting to kill him and then going to the next Harris rally to tell everyone to vote for Trump (Paul went to the synagogue where they tried to do to him what he had planner for Ananias and the disciples!).

Acts 9:19-24
Now for several days he was with the disciples who were at Damascus, and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, "He is the Son of God." All those hearing him continued to be amazed, and were saying, "Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on this name, and who had come here for the purpose of bringing them bound before the chief priests?" But Saul kept increasing in strength and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus by proving that this Jesus is the Christ. When many days had elapsed, the Jews plotted together to do away with him, but their plot became known to Saul. They were also watching the gates day and night so that they might put him to death.

And then he rode back to Jerusalem scale-free where,

Acts 9:26-29
When he came to Jerusalem, he was trying to associate with the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took hold of him and brought him to the apostles and described to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had talked to him, and how at Damascus he had spoken out boldly in the name of Jesus. And he was with them, moving about freely in Jerusalem, speaking out boldly in the name of the Lord. And he was talking and arguing with the Hellenistic Jews; but they were attempting to put him to death.
.

After Regeneration, is there a new kind of knowing?

You bet your booty there's a new way of knowing!



I am not sure what the Reformers' or Puritans' purported separation of regeneration and conversion have to do with the op, but neither have I much interest in discussing their views. I'll let you and Red work it out, and hopefully address any remaining guilt and nonsense, and maybe why the transcript* never directly answers the article's inquiry








*Thomas' leveraging consciousness is incorrect, Godfrey's appeal to in utero regeneration is questionable, and Parson's conflation of "immediate" and "mediate" obfuscating (he did not preclude the mediating Spirit using the passage of time in His mediation).
.