New Birth; a Necessity?

[prism]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

 

[Josheb]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?

I do not believe so.

Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

It's a curious question because Jesus said he was the only way to the Father. He did not say being born anew from above (gennethe anothen) was required. What he said about the new birth from above was that it was necessary to see the kingdom of God. That would seem to beg the question, "How can someone see something they do not believe exists?" I've always thought that odd or curious because Hebrews 11 tells us "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." I do not need to see it to believe it exists.

• I cannot see the kingdom unless born anew from above.
• Faith is the conviction of what I cannot see. the assurance of what I hope for.

I do not need to see it to believe it exists, but in order to see it I must be born anew from above . Logically, those two premises mean I can have hope for and conviction of the kingdom without seeing it but once I am born anew from above, then I can see it. Furthermore, I am saved through faith, justified by faith and by faith I live and walk and am deemed righteous (even though I am not actually so) and have my introduction into God's grace. There are a host of statements about the kingdom that tell me it's within and all around, something seen but not observed, something now and something future.

Stepping out of that mud puddle.....

The Law would save me if I kept all of it.... but the irony is the Law requires me to live by faith and believe a variety of soteriological conditions such as the atonement for my sin that would come through God's sacrifice (not my own) by grace. Since one of the purposes the Law serves is to provide and understanding of and account for sin it is the Law itself from which I am also saved it seems awfully circular.

​

So, I think it is a very good thing scripture explicitly states,

Acts 4:11-12
This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

So let's not reject that guy . Presumably that kingdom I can't see unless I am born anew from above has a king . Presumably, if I can see the kingdom, then I can see the king of that kingdom. Romans 6 tells be I have to be enslaved to God to have eternal life, but the eternal life is a gift .

Oops! Gotta go. I'll come back and play around with that question some more.

 

[donadams]

You cannot enter the kingdom without it!

It removes the stain of original sin and is a the seal of the HS!

Filled with God’s grace, where before it we are devoid of grace!

Cannot receive it on you own! (No faith alone jazz)

2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I would say yes the new birth by faith and baptism are required to enter the new covenant of grace, to put on Christ gal 3:27 and be a member of Christ 1 cor 12:13 in the mystical body the communion of saints!

Thanks

 

[Carbon]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?

According to scripture, no.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?

Of course!!!! the indication is that the "Soul" is immortal, so everybody has "Eternal Life". Where they SPEND their eternity is the important question. Hell is not desirable, particularly since you have to share it with satan, and his people.

Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

Nope - NO OTHER WAY John 3:3 is definitive about that. WHen a person is CONVICTED OF THEIR SIN, and Surrenders, and REPENTS and calls upon God in FAITH (which comes from the conviction) then they're Born Again, and infilled by the Holy SPirit making them a "New Creature", and a child of God.

 

[Soyeong]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

Being born again is synonymous with having eternal life. God's way is the way that He expresses aspects of His nature, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19), Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to know God and Jesus through expressing aspects of God's nature, which is eternal life (John 17:3). Expressing aspects of God's nature is also the way to believe in Jesus, which is why there are many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus, many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commands, and many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to His commands.

Our salvation is from sin, which is what is contrary to God's nature, so living in a way that is expressing God's nature in obedience to His law is the way that God saves us from living in sin. Likewise, being born again is about being in the image of God's nature, which are also fruits of the Spirit, which is why those who do not practice righteousness sin obedience to God's law are not born again (1 John 3:4-10), and why Paul contrasted those who are born again of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law (Romans 8:4-14).

 

[prism]

Nope - NO OTHER WAY John 3:3 is definitive about that. WHen a person is CONVICTED OF THEIR SIN, and Surrenders, and REPENTS and calls upon God in FAITH (which comes from the conviction) then they're Born Again, and infilled by the Holy SPirit making them a "New Creature", and a child of God.

How much 'surrender' must they do until they are born again??

 

[prism]

Being born again is synonymous with having eternal life. God's way is the way that He expresses aspects of His nature, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19), Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to know God and Jesus through expressing aspects of God's nature, which is eternal life (John 17:3). Expressing aspects of God's nature is also the way to believe in Jesus, which is why there are many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus, many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commands, and many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to His commands.

Our salvation is from sin, which is what is contrary to God's nature, so living in a way that is expressing God's nature in obedience to His law is the way that God saves us from living in sin. Likewise, being born again is about being in the image of God's nature, which are also fruits of the Spirit, which is why those who do not practice righteousness sin obedience to God's law are not born again (1 John 3:4-10), and why Paul contrasted those who are born again of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law (Romans 8:4-14).

Again:

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

 

[Soyeong]

Again:

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

Again, I stated being born again is synonymous with having eternal life, then I gave justification for that claim by connecting eternal live, being saved, and being born again.

 

[Mr GLee]

You cannot enter the kingdom without it!

It removes the stain of original sin and is a the seal of the HS!

Filled with God’s grace, where before it we are devoid of grace!

Cannot receive it on you own! (No faith alone jazz)

The faith of Christ as a labor of his love is never alone .

No such thing a "stain of original sin" a Catholic oral traditions of dying fathers needed to support the limbo and purgatory doctrine of men Doing despite to the fullness of grace the whole cost of salvation .Teaching only a queen mother of heaven received the fulness the rest of mankind a unknowable amount of grace .They also teach she visits them in Limbo for the younger or Purgatory for the mature sinners to comfort them in thier agony. Even comforting, guiding the protestants in thier suffering

Death is the appointment all make, not near dead" a stain" but dead never to rise to new life .

Peter our brother in the Lord the serial denier used as a warning what not to do.

Coming from a law of the fathers (Pharisees with Sadducees) just like Saul before his born again conversion the baptism of the unseen Holy Spirit . Right after being reinstated for his denial of Christ again and again . Peter our brother in the Lord got jealous of John and went to town to start another of the oral traditions of dying mankind . Jesus exposed the lies and said if every time Christ performed that work of exposing the lies of the oral traditions of men .We would need a bigger planet to hold the volumes upon volumes

The same scripture the Catholic fathers use to try and promote the oral traditions of dying men in that they are a higher authority that all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

John 21:20-24 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Amen ? ????

 

[Bob Carabbio]

How much 'surrender' must they do until they are born again??

It takes an EXCEEDINGLY SHARP hermeneutical broadaxe to split a hair that fine!!! (Chuckle)

But the answer is - enough to REPENT of your SIN, and cry out to God in faith. Then everything changes.

 

[prism]

Again, I stated being born again is synonymous with having eternal life, then I gave justification for that claim by connecting eternal live, being saved, and being born again.

When one is born again, is there any change of nature in a person on the way to eternal life?

 

[prism]

It takes an EXCEEDINGLY SHARP hermeneutical broadaxe to split a hair that fine!!! (Chuckle)

Maybe that's because 'surrender' is a man made concept. I fail to find it in Scripture. I do find 'yield' but that is used in a military sense of 'present your bodies for service'.

 

[EarlyActs]

Can a person not be born again and still have eternal life?
Or is there another way to be saved except by being born again.

It is at the same time, but of course, as you can see from the original usage, it was directed to a leader of Judaism at the time, who had a very difficult time thinking of anything but natural descent. He had to put that out of his mind.

The important part of Jn 3 is not the born again lines, it is 16+ about justification from our sins.

 

[Mr GLee]

The important part of Jn 3 is not the born again lines, it is 16+ about justification from our sins

John 3 is not the born-again lines.??? Why not important? Not sure what you are trying to say? 16+ what ?????

 

[EarlyActs]

16 + refers to Jn 3:16+ about condemnation and justification.

When a person is steeped in Judaism (as Nic was) and the physical descent lines, the imagery of being born again is not as useful or effective as the doctrines explained in v16 and on.

In fact the term ‘anothen’ is more often from above or from the beginning, rather than again, which is usually to do something a 2nd time.

From the beginning would mean that Jesus wanted him to see his roots as known in Abraham, who believed the message of Christ , that he would have righteousness credited to him, and that all the nations would be blessed.

That’s way closer to the original Christian message in Abraham, as Gal 3 explains.

Finally, if we follow Jesus closely, this other birth is needed to see (to envision) the kingdom. That’s not the same as saying a new birth is a sort of command being put on people to be saved. It means Nic Could not figure out where this kingdom was that Jesus kept referring to.

 

[prism]

It means Nic Could not figure out where this kingdom was that Jesus kept referring to.

Perhaps Nicodemus would have figured out what the Kingdom was referring to if he had been born from above..if he had known the Scriptures.

(both future tense)
Ezekiel 36:25-27 ESV
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. [26] And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Jeremiah 31:33 ESV
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
Some years ago a know-it-all Sunday school teacher wasted the hour sitting us thru
a Hollywood movie that dramatized the life of Joseph. When it ended I raised my
hand and asked the teacher whether Joseph was born again. He was stupefied and
after a moment of dumbfounded silence; the class erupted into debate from one
side of the room to the other.

So when he asked me to explain, I said-- in so many words --that the language and
grammar of John 3:3-8 affords no exemptions.
_

 

[Josheb]

It is at the same time, but of course, as you can see from the original usage, it was directed to a leader of Judaism at the time, who had a very difficult time thinking of anything but natural descent. He had to put that out of his mind.

The important part of Jn 3 is not the born again lines, it is 16+ about justification from our sins.

John 3:16+ states nothing about justification from our sins.

John 3:16-21
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

No mention of justification. In point of fact, there's no mention of justification in the entire chapter. Therefore, if there is no mention of justification then the claim verses 16+ are the most important because they are about justification is baseless. There is no justification for the claim the verses are about justification.

 

[EarlyActs]

Perhaps Nicodemus would have figured out what the Kingdom was referring to if he had been born from above..if he had known the Scriptures.

(both future tense)
Ezekiel 36:25-27 ESV
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. [26] And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Jeremiah 31:33 ESV
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Indeed. But with the reference to condemnation/justification there in ch 3, and with a key quote about Abraham being 'he believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' the 'anothen' (from above, from the beginning) would seem to go there (to the Abraham model/example/narrative).

Being born again is not used in the NT as much as being made alive in Christ. And in Jn 3 it is more about being able to see something that is not visible, than a condition for salvation.