The Rapture

[TheWordIsOne]

Greetings
if I may
The word rapture is not in the bible, its called the gathering

For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matt 24:27-31 (NKJV)

Matt 24: 31 the word is gathered or gathering together His elect the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The word rapture
An 1828 edition of Matthew Henry's An Exposition of the Old and New Testament uses the word "rapture" in explicating 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Although not using the term "rapture", the idea was more fully developed by Edward Irving (1792–1834).

 

[TheWordIsOne]

A note
English Words Used in KJV:
gather 15
be gathered together 12
gather together 9
come together 6
be gathered 4
be assembled 3
take in 3
miscellaneous translations 10
[Total Count: 62]
from <G4862> (sun) and <G71> (ago); to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; specially to entertain (hospitably) :- + accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.
—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

 

[Deleted member 6]

Greetings
if I may
The word rapture is not in the bible, its called the gathering

For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matt 24:27-31 (NKJV)

Matt 24: 31 the word is gathered or gathering together His elect the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The word rapture
An 1828 edition of Matthew Henry's An Exposition of the Old and New Testament uses the word "rapture" in explicating 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Although not using the term "rapture", the idea was more fully developed by Edward Irving (1792–1834).

FTR, no one is denying the rapture, but rather discussing the timing of when it will take place. I don't care how hard anyone digs into the word of God, there is not one verse, or passage of verses, that explicitly teach a pre-trib rapture. And I don't think there are any places that even implicitly teach it, either.

 

[Marilyn C]

FTR, no one is denying the rapture, but rather discussing the timing of when it will take place. I don't care how hard anyone digs into the word of God, there is not one verse, or passage of verses, that explicitly teach a pre-trib rapture. And I don't think there are any places that even implicitly teach it, either.

Acts 3: 20 & 21, Joel 2: 1.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Acts 3: 20 & 21, Joel 2: 1.

and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.[Acts 3:210-21]

Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,[Joel 2:1]

Show me from these two places that this is prior to the great tribulation. What does this explicitly show this happening prior to the great tribulation.

 

[Wordsmith]

But none live today close to the age they did. So, still, my point stands. If 1,000 years is literal, then so are the 1,000 hills those cattle are on He owns, and the 1,000 generations of Psalm 105:8.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes

Using your logic and exegesis since the lamb is Genesis is a literal animal ,the lamb in Revelation must be a literal animal or are both symbolic animals or are neither literal animals? Context matters and a little common sense thrown in helps.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Are the sons of God present when God "laid the foundations of the earth" Job 38:4 born again believers in Christ or are they angels since they are angels, are the sons of God in John 1:12 angels or are they born again believers in Christ. Context matters and a little common sense thrown in helps.


Song of Solomon 8:11 Solomon had a vineyard at Baalhamon; he let out the vineyard unto keepers; every one for the fruit thereof was to bring a thousand pieces of silver.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

I guess Solomon 8:11 could be 750 pieces of silver and Revelation 20:7 could be 750 days? Context matters and a little common sense thrown in helps.

For some people 1000 Years in Revelation can be anything they want it to be to justify a particular doctrine.

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Technically If God owns the cattle on every hill He still owns the cattle on 1000 of those hills so this could be literal? Right? No we probably agree on this one it is symbolic but this verse does not set the Biblical standard for the number 1000. Context matters and a little common sense thrown in helps.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

For me a thousand years here means a thousand years,I see nothing in the context or text to tell me different. Common sense tells me when 1000 years are expired 1000 years have ended.

Are some trying to use new modern math where 2 plus 2 does not equal 4 any more ? I actually heard the quote of some woke person that said that problem in math was racist.

 

[civic]

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes

Using your logic and exegesis since the lamb is Genesis is a literal animal ,the lamb in Revelation must be a literal animal or are both symbolic animals or are neither literal animals? Context matters and a little common sense thrown in helps.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Are the sons of God present when God "laid the foundations of the earth" Job 38:4 born again believers in Christ or are they angels since they are angels, are the sons of God in John 1:12 angels or are they born again believers in Christ. Context matters and a little common sense thrown in helps.


Song of Solomon 8:11 Solomon had a vineyard at Baalhamon; he let out the vineyard unto keepers; every one for the fruit thereof was to bring a thousand pieces of silver.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

I guess Solomon 8:11 could be 750 pieces of silver and Revelation 20:7 could be 750 days? Context matters and a little common sense thrown in helps.

For some people 1000 Years in Revelation can be anything they want it to be to justify a particular doctrine.

Psalm 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Technically If God owns the cattle on every hill He still owns the cattle on 1000 of those hills so this could be literal? Right? No we probably agree on this one it is symbolic but this verse does not set the Biblical standard for the number 1000. Context matters and a little common sense thrown in helps.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

For me a thousand years here means a thousand years,I see nothing in the context or text to tell me different. Common sense tells me when 1000 years are expired 1000 years have ended.

Are some trying to use new modern math where 2 plus 2 does not equal 4 any more ? I actually heard the quote of some woke person that said that problem in math was racist.

Was Isaac a type of Christ in Genesis 22 ?

 

[Wordsmith]

Was Isaac a type of Christ in Genesis 22 ?

Sure but that does not change the point I made. There was a literal sacrifice provided.

 

[civic]

Sure but that does not change the point I made.

Well he is not since it was the Ram that was sacrificed and not Isaac. So the type is the Ram that was actually the sacrifice the Lord provided.

 

[Wordsmith]

Well he is not since it was the Ram that was sacrificed and not Isaac. So the type is the Ram that was actually the sacrifice the Lord provided.

The main point is still the same pick any OT verse with a lamb you like. Doesn’t matter the point is still the same.

 

[civic]

The main point is still the same pick any OT verse with a lamb you like. Doesn’t matter the point is still the same.

The point was you agreed Isaac was the "type " and he was not. Thats my point. If you are wrong about Isaac as a type what else might you be wrong about as a type ?

 

[Wordsmith]

The point was you agreed Isaac was the "type " and he was not. Thats my point. If you are wrong about Isaac as a type what else might you be wrong about as a type ?

It’s still 1000 literal years. It just might be you that’s wrong.

 

[civic]

It’s still 1000 literal years. It just might be you that’s wrong.

I wasn't debating the1000 years

 

[CrowCross]

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth. These hold to a premillennial, pre-trib view of the rapture. This is also what dispensationalists believe. I am not an expert on this so if there are some dispy's who disagree please bring it up for correction or debate.

I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
I believe Jesus returns at the end of the church age, or the time of the great apostasy which happens immediately before the return of Christ. Which marks the end of the millennial age on the earth.

I dont disagree with a rapture, just the time in which it takes place.

Here is where I believe the Rapture takes place. Christ's second coming.

and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Matthew 24.



“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Hi Carbon,
I have found myself landing in the "pre-trib" theological view.

When I read the bible I see Jesus returning twice....once at the rapture in/near/around the beginning of the 7 year tribulation period.

One reason is in the book of Acts when Jesus ascends into heaven the two angels say Jesus will return in the same way.
In Revelations Jesus is portrayed as returning riding a white horse...which isn't how Jesus left. This seems to indicate 2 returns.

As to the rapture being "secret"...tho we don't know the time and date...when it happens it won't be a secret.

 

[Carbon]

Hi Carbon,
I have found myself landing in the "pre-trib" theological view.

Well, it is a Christian view brother.

When I read the bible I see Jesus returning twice....once at the rapture in/near/around the beginning of the 7 year tribulation period.

One reason is in the book of Acts when Jesus ascends into heaven the two angels say Jesus will return in the same way.
In Revelations Jesus is portrayed as returning riding a white horse...which isn't how Jesus left. This seems to indicate 2 returns.

As to the rapture being "secret"...tho we don't know the time and date...when it happens it won't be a secret.

 

[CrowCross]

The word rapture is not in the bible, its called the gathering

Tho the word "rapture" is not in the bible...the words "caught up" are. Harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away.
The Latin translation of that word is English comes from a Latin word, rapio....from which we get rapture.

I thought I'd clear that up for those who didn't know that.

 

[CrowCross]

Well, it is a Christian view brother.

Yes it is...a view that I'm not going to be divided over.

 

[civic]

Yes it is...a view that I'm not going to be divided over.

Amen like Calvinism or Arminianism

 

[CrowCross]

Amen like Calvinism or Arminianism

Yes.
Unless I'm being told I'm not saved or lost my salvation because of my Calvinistic views.

 

[Carbon]

Yes.
Unless I'm being told I'm not saved or lost my salvation because of my Calvinistic views.

And it's unfortunate some believe such nonsense.