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The Rapture

Rev 3:10 is one from the string of verses....Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
This does not say anything about a rapture , catching away or coming of the Lord. You have assumed that to be true because of your belief system.
1 Thes 5:9 is yet another...though some may see it as getting out of hell.... For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Again this does not mention a rapture , catching away or coming of the Lord. It only says we are not destined to wrath ,which is very much true.
2 Thes 2:7 can be added to the list....For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
The restrainer is not the Holy Spirit or the church!
Where is the scripture that says Jesus will rapture the church during or after the tribulation?
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
The coming of the Lord is when we are Gathered (Raptured if you prefer that word).


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The Day of Christ is His coming!

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
That day (the Day of Christ, the day of our gathering) will not happen until after the falling away (the falling away is not the rapture of the church) it is the apostasy.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

That day the day of our gathering will not happen until after the man of sin is revealed.

You have no scripture that clearly states the gathering will before the above events. Only by reverse engineering select passages can one come the the conclusion there is a pre-trib rapture.
 
You said in the above....."Yes there are Christians present during the 42 month reign od AC. Saints are Christians!"

It seems pretty obvious if there is a pre-trib rapture....that when Revelations presents christians in the trib....they obviously were born again. Do you know of any other method?
So what was your point of Revelation 13:7?
 
This does not say anything about a rapture , catching away or coming of the Lord. You have assumed that to be true because of your belief system.
No...simply connect the dots.
 
2 Thes 2:3 says...

1599 Geneva 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

ESV Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

NASB No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

For a study of the word 646. apostasia click link. The word was only used twice. The root word 868. aphistémi may help with the understanding of the word.

The word seems to have several nuances depending on the context of the verse. The verse in context is a review of 1st Thess as Paul was trying to fix the false teachings in the false letter.

The question is...what is the "apostasia" shown in red above? Is it physical or spiritual?

Is it the church falling away from the teaching of the bible....or....is it the church physically departing from the earth...as in the RAPTURE?
The 1599 version used departing and the later translators choose to use words that represent a defection rather than a physical leaving.

Right now I'm going with "Rapture". That is the idenity of anti-christ will not be know until after the rapture.

The verse can be read as follows...Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rapture comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Folks, there is a pre-trip rapture. Are you ready?
You are free to believe what you wish but you are not free to teach error with out being challenged. The word "apostasia " does not mean depart to another location!

Acts 21:21
And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

The word "forsake" above is the word "apostasia" same as in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 . If you want the departing it is departing from the faith not the planet.
 
So what was your point of Revelation 13:7?
There is christians present during the trib....considering prior to the trib the christians were removed at the rapture of the church...these must be recent, new, born again believers.
 
There is christians present during the trib....considering prior to the trib the christians were removed at the rapture of the church...these must be recent, new, born again believers.
Show me a passage that says in clear language Christians are removed from the planet and taken back to heaven. That should not be too hard to find if it is true!
 
There is christians present during the trib....considering prior to the trib the christians were removed at the rapture of the church...these must be recent, new, born again believers.
We really can not consider that ,since it is not mentioned anywhere is scripture.
 
In the end the separation of the Wheat and Tears
1687185315603.png

reading from the (NKJV)
Matthew 13:23-33 (NKJV) But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

Matthew 13:24 - 25 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

Matthew 13:26 -28 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'

Matthew 13:29 - 30 But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "

Matthew 13:31 - 32 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches."

Matthew 13: 33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

Matthew 13:28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest and at the time of harvest
The Great Separation

The reapers gather up the tares, children of the wicked one
Matthew 13:30 I will say to the reapers "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them

bind them to burn them what tares look like when they roasted

Matthew 13:30 but gather the wheat into my barn."

The process of weeding and shifting
Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat.

Psalms 83:13-14-2 Tim 2:23-26
then gather the wheat and by the Measure chaff in wheat, as is the measure of their sins
The more chaff, the wheat is grind until it is fine as the grain of wheat comes out the refined man, they will be judged! through the Great Tribulation
Why one is taken and one is left
Two men, and two women
Matthew 24:40

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

The wheat is the Gentiles, and believers will go through the tribulation
why did they call them wheat? Shifting Of Wheat, the Lord said I will sprinkle the grain of wheat onto the earth

John 12:23-26 But Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified.
Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.
He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, he My Father will honor.
 
Since you sometimes see fit to answer my question with a question I'll ask you who do you think it is and why?
Who is the restrainer? I see 2 possibilities.
1) The Holy Spirit
2) The Christians.

If it is the Holy Spirit...when the HS is removed the Christians go with the HS considering the HS resides in Christians.
If it refers to the Christians...when the rapture the Christians there are no more prayers restraining the anti-christ.

So, who is the restrainer?
 
Strongs disagree's with you....here, check it out.
Really show me!

Lexicon :: Strong's G646 - apostasia

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ἀποστασία​

Transliteration
apostasia (Key)
Pronunciation
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
speaker3_a.svg

Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Feminine of the same as ἀποστάσιον (G647)
Greek Inflections of ἀποστασία [?]
mGNT
2x in 2 unique form(s) TR
2x in 2 unique form(s) LXX
3x in 2 unique form(s)
ἀποστασία — 1x
ἀποστασίαν — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:513,88
KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
The KJV translates Strong's G646 in the following manner: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. a falling away, defection, apostasy
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G646:
ἀποστασία, -ας, ἡ, (ἀφίσταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ([Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19]; Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36:32(Jeremiah 29:32) Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; [Winer's Grammar, 24].
 
Show me a passage that says in clear language Christians are removed from the planet and taken back to heaven. That should not be too hard to find if it is true!
No problem...

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
 
Really show me!

Lexicon :: Strong's G646 - apostasia

Choose a new font size and typeface

ἀποστασία​

Transliteration
apostasia (Key)
Pronunciation
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
speaker3_a.svg

Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Feminine of the same as ἀποστάσιον (G647)
Greek Inflections of ἀποστασία [?]
mGNT
2x in 2 unique form(s) TR
2x in 2 unique form(s) LXX
3x in 2 unique form(s)
ἀποστασία — 1x
ἀποστασίαν — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:513,88
KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
The KJV translates Strong's G646 in the following manner: to forsake (with G575) (1x), falling away (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. a falling away, defection, apostasy
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G646:
ἀποστασία, -ας, ἡ, (ἀφίσταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ([Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19]; Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36:32(Jeremiah 29:32) Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; [Winer's Grammar, 24].
The 1599 Geneva bible puts it this way.... 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

There is a reason why the word was swapped out...changed....which has to do with the catholics and Protestants of those days.....where the RC church wanted to present the protestants as rebelling.
 
Who is the restrainer? I see 2 possibilities.
1) The Holy Spirit
2) The Christians.

If it is the Holy Spirit...when the HS is removed the Christians go with the HS considering the HS resides in Christians.
If it refers to the Christians...when the rapture the Christians there are no more prayers restraining the anti-christ.

So, who is the restrainer?
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

You first problem is to show how verse 1,2 &3 are talking about different days. In context they are all the same day. Your second problem is to show how the day will not come until after the man of sin is revealed if that comes before the man of sin is revealed.

The problem with your Holy Spirit bing remove is how does the omnipresent Holy Spirit get removed when you claim people will be saved in the tribulation.

There is no clear absolute answer for this question but my theory is Michael and we can at least make a case from the book of Daniel. Where do you go to make your case?
 
The 1599 Geneva bible puts it this way.... 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

There is a reason why the word was swapped out...changed....which has to do with the catholics and Protestants of those days.....where the RC church wanted to present the protestants as rebelling.
The Geneva Bible is not Strong's you said Strongs didn't agree with me. and you are right I agree with Strong's.
 
No problem...

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
I'll answer this later, You assume this says something it does not say. As is common with pre-trib arguments.
 
I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
Nice to have met you.

You are going to get raptured anyway. That is, if you truly believed in Christ.
 
The Geneva Bible is not Strong's you said Strongs didn't agree with me. and you are right I agree with Strong's.
The 1559 Geneva Bible had no axe to grind.

The understanding of that Rapture is a more recent insight.

So why was it translated that way if it were not a legitimate choice?
 
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