Why Have You Forsaken Me?

[Arial]

Yes, Jesus was forsaken of all help and relief of His suffering on the cross, whereas all through through the life He lived before that He had it. But that does not mean that He did not suffer the wrath of God on the cross. What else was that as He bore our sins as though He was the sinner? On the cross Jesus was like the natural man without Christ. Alone in the world, without hope, and without God, dead in trespasses and sin, and quickened to life in the grave, as the believer is quickened to life in Christ, and will also, at the right time, be raised from the grave.

Law has a penal code. Lawbreakers suffer the penalties of that code. The law of God says the penal code for sin is death---eternal spiritual death as well as spiritual death, and no way to attain spiritual life. Two things had to be met on the cross. A substitution----the righteous for the unrighteous---and the penal code for sin satisfied. The penalty for sin had to be met. If Jesus did not actually pay the penalty, facing the wrath of God, as the substitute, then sin is unpaid for.

 

[civic]

Yes, Jesus was forsaken of all help and relief of His suffering on the cross, whereas all through through the life He lived before that He had it. But that does not mean that He did not suffer the wrath of God on the cross. What else was that as He bore our sins as though He was the sinner? On the cross Jesus was like the natural man without Christ. Alone in the world, without hope, and without God, dead in trespasses and sin, and quickened to life in the grave, as the believer is quickened to life in Christ, and will also, at the right time, be raised from the grave.

Law has a penal code. Lawbreakers suffer the penalties of that code. The law of God says the penal code for sin is death---eternal spiritual death as well as spiritual death, and no way to attain spiritual life. Two things had to be met on the cross. A substitution----the righteous for the unrighteous---and the penal code for sin satisfied. The penalty for sin had to be met. If Jesus did not actually pay the penalty, facing the wrath of God, as the substitute, then sin is unpaid for.

He was without God ?

That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. He is God forever in the flesh, One of the Divine Persons of the Trinity which is Immutable.

Jesus did not suffer spiritual death thats another misnomer. Got Scripture for that one ?

And Jesus was like a natural man without Christ ? He is the Christ/ Messiah and proclaimed that on the cross by quoting psalm 22:1. He never ceased being the Messiah in the same way He never ceased being God.

 

[Arial]

Matthew 26:56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

John 16:32 A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

He was alone in the sense that his disciples left him (Matthew 26:56), but the Father was always there inseparably present according to the Divine Nature that is in union to the human nature by the Son.

Jesus' cry on the cross was not "Why have my disciples forsaken me." It was "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." Sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors, will not change that. The issue at hand concerns the the human nature of Christ, His flesh nailed to the cross, not His Divine nature. His disciples deserted Him before He was on the cross, and it is on the cross that Jesus asked why God had forsaken Him. You are proof texting by applying things to something they do not apply to.

I am sure we could give a list of how many weaknesses he was experiencing while on the cross. One of them was psychological weakness "a feeling as if he was being forsaken" not that he was literally forsaken nor did the father forsaken him (John 16:32). He was literally feeling despair in the midst of suffering, he cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me," but yet, through all of this suffering the Father was still there and have not forsaken him.

The underlined is deflection. God is everywhere all the time, so of course He was there. Jesus is not saying God was not there. Jesus could not purchase anyone with His blood if all He did was substitute Himself in their place. That would not satisfy the penal code against sin---which is physical death and the wrath of God against sin. He had to pay the price as the substitute.

Psalms 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

God did not leave Him in the grave, but He raised Him after Jesus made full satisfaction for sin. God did not remove the suffering, the direct penalty for sin including His wrath, but answered His cry after that had been accomplished, and because there was no actual sin in Christ. God accepted the payment. Jesus' cry on the cross was not in relationship to His divine nature, or what was being accomplished through it, but about the agony of His flesh from which there was no escape---and only God could have delivered Him from it.

Hebrews 5:7-8 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered.

More smoke and mirrors. It says "in His life" meaning before the cross. Jesus was being obedient in going to the cross, He did not learn obedience on the cross. The suffering on the cross was not to teach Him obedience. And He was heard by the One who could saved Hm from death but obviously not saved from the suffering of the crucifixion. Because of all His obedience, even obedience to death on the cross, He was raised to life---from the grave. He had done nothing that would allow death to hold Him.

 

[Binyawmene]

He was without God ?

That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. He is God forever in the flesh, One of the Divine Persons of the Trinity which is Immutable.

Jesus did not suffer spiritual death thats another misnomer. Got Scripture for that one ?

And Jesus was like a natural man without Christ ? He is the Christ/ Messiah and proclaimed that on the cross by quoting psalm 22:1. He never ceased being the Messiah in the same way He never ceased being God.

I guess some people want to reject the Trinity and Hypostatic Union based in a particular interpretation of forsaken.

 

[civic]

I guess some people want to reject the Trinity and Hypostatic Union based in a particular interpretation of forsaken.

Yep. When we start with God instead of a particular theology we arrive at truth. Theology( the study of God ). Our doctrines must fall under Gods nature, character, Being etc.....

I know with you I'm preaching to the choir. When we start with God we are no longer confined to a theological box and are able to look outside of those confinements that we have been either taught correctly or are in error. And The Trinity and Hypostatic Union ( we line up in unison here) do just that as demonstrated here in this thread.

 

[ReverendRV]

God is Dead ~ by ReverendRV * April 24

Matthew 27:50 KJV; Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Can God die? The famous Philosopher Neitsche said, “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods, simply to appear worthy of it?” ~ But you ask, “How can WE kill God??”. Philosophers have been taking a stab at killing God for years, sooner or later they will deliver a mortal wound. Some Philosophers say “If it is legitimate to argue against the existence of God, then the existence of God is legitimized”. Atheist admit they are arguing against God for a Christian’s sake; but why would they continue to rally against a God when they’re amongst themselves? Isn’t that the epitome of Idolatry?
This might surprise you to hear, but God can die. ~ Have you ever wished someone were dead?

Jesus said Hatred is Murder from your heart. Do you Hate God? If you find him contemptible for his actions or inactions, you despise him. You are then Like Neitsche and actually have killed God. Does it cause a little adrenaline to run through your chest at the thought you have broken his chains and cast off his bonds? You felt it; didn’t you? You now know that you delight in Murder. ~ Christians believe that God can die; let me explain. God became a Man in the person of Jesus Christ, and Biblical Death is called Separation from God. Jesus became Sin on the Cross, and the midday sky turned black. The Divine Logos of God was irrevocably united to Jesus; Body and Soul: yet a legal Separation took place, even if there wasn’t an Essential Separation of God and Man in Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ died because of the Hatred of Men. ~ But there is bad news for you; Jesus is the LORD of Resurrection! You’ve Murdered a God who rises from the dead! Does this bother you? When you die, he will be on his Judgement Seat; and you will see that he WAS dead. God sends guilty Sinners to Hell for all eternity; you must be Forgiven or else…

Jesus Christ is the GodMan who lived a Sinless life and pleased God his Father. He came to make an Atonement for Sin, bleeding to death. He was buried for three days but rose from the dead; and is now the Judge of everyone’s destiny. We’re Saved by the Grace through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus as LORD and find a Bible believing Church. ~ Neitsche was wrong; God does not remain dead. God is comprised of a Trinity; and God never Separated! But because the Logos of God and Jesus of Nazareth became ‘One’, the Biblical definition of Death was met when Jesus died; even for God. The Bodily Resurrection removed the Legal Separation, thus God and Man were in Union again. ~ An angry and Vengeful God is on your trail…

Revelation 1:18 NIV; I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

 

[civic]

God is Dead ~ by ReverendRV * April 24

Matthew 27:50 KJV; Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Can God die? The famous Philosopher Neitsche said, “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods, simply to appear worthy of it?” ~ But you ask, “How can WE kill God??”. Philosophers have been taking a stab at killing God for years, sooner or later they will deliver a mortal wound. Some Philosophers say “If it is legitimate to argue against the existence of God, then the existence of God is legitimized”. Atheist admit they are arguing against God for a Christian’s sake; but why would they continue to rally against a God when they’re amongst themselves? Isn’t that the epitome of Idolatry?
This might surprise you to hear, but God can die. ~ Have you ever wished someone were dead?

Jesus said Hatred is Murder from your heart. Do you Hate God? If you find him contemptible for his actions or inactions, you despise him. You are then Like Neitsche and actually have killed God. Does it cause a little adrenaline to run through your chest at the thought you have broken his chains and cast off his bonds? You felt it; didn’t you? You now know that you delight in Murder. ~ Christians believe that God can die; let me explain. God became a Man in the person of Jesus Christ, and Biblical Death is called Separation from God. Jesus became Sin on the Cross, and the midday sky turned black. The Divine Logos of God was irrevocably united to Jesus; Body and Soul: yet a legal Separation took place, even if there wasn’t an Essential Separation of God and Man in Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ died because of the Hatred of Men. ~ But there is bad news for you; Jesus is the LORD of Resurrection! You’ve Murdered a God who rises from the dead! Does this bother you? When you die, he will be on his Judgement Seat; and you will see that he WAS dead. God sends guilty Sinners to Hell for all eternity; you must be Forgiven or else…

Jesus Christ is the GodMan who lived a Sinless life and pleased God his Father. He came to make an Atonement for Sin, bleeding to death. He was buried for three days but rose from the dead; and is now the Judge of everyone’s destiny. We’re Saved by the Grace through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus as LORD and find a Bible believing Church. ~ Neitsche was wrong; God does not remain dead. God is comprised of a Trinity; and God never Separated! But because the Logos of God and Jesus of Nazareth became ‘One’, the Biblical definition of Death was met when Jesus died; even for God. The Bodily Resurrection removed the Legal Separation, thus God and Man were in Union again. ~ An angry and Vengeful God is on your trail…

Revelation 1:18 NIV; I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

I agree with the above with the exception of this :

"and Biblical Death is called Separation from God. Jesus became Sin on the Cross, and the midday sky turned black. The Divine Logos of God was irrevocably united to Jesus; Body and Soul: yet a legal Separation took place, even if there wasn’t an Essential Separation of God and Man in Christ. "

death is the separation of the body from the soul, its what happens when we all die and are buried in the grave after we take out last breath.

 

[Binyawmene]

Jesus Christ is the GodMan who lived a Sinless life and pleased God his Father. He came to make an Atonement for Sin, bleeding to death. He was buried for three days but rose from the dead; and is now the Judge of everyone’s destiny. We’re Saved by the Grace through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus as LORD and find a Bible believing Church. .

Amen.

 

[ReverendRV]

I agree with the above with the exception of this :

"and Biblical Death is called Separation from God. Jesus became Sin on the Cross, and the midday sky turned black. The Divine Logos of God was irrevocably united to Jesus; Body and Soul: yet a legal Separation took place, even if there wasn’t an Essential Separation of God and Man in Christ. "

death is the separation of the body from the soul, its what happens when we all die and are buried in the grave after we take out last breath.

Why would you disagree that Death in any sense is Separation from God?

 

[civic]

Why would you disagree that Death in any sense is Separation from God?

What scripture are you getting that definition of death from ? Thanks !

 

[ReverendRV]

What scripture are you getting that definition of death from ? Thanks !

Isaiah 59:2...

 

[Arial]

He was without God ?

That is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. He is God forever in the flesh, One of the Divine Persons of the Trinity which is Immutable.

You are mixing the two natures. The Bible clearly states that all mankind is in the same boat and it is stated in Eph 2:11-12 as Gentiles, being outside the covenant with God before Christ, as being without God. In Eph 2:1-3 it puts us all in that condition, dead in tresspasses and sin without Christ. Yet we know that God is everywhere all the time. So handle the word of God correctly instead of using diversionary tactics. If what you claim regarding Jesus crying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." is biblically correct, you won't need to do that. And don't mix the two natures when it is convenient and preach also at other times that they are not mixed.

Jesus did not suffer spiritual death thats another misnomer. Got Scripture for that one ?

Strawman. I did not say that. You read it into what I said. I said that was the penal code against sin.

And Jesus was like a natural man without Christ ? He is the Christ/ Messiah and proclaimed that on the cross by quoting psalm 22:1. He never ceased being the Messiah in the same way He never ceased being God.

Another straw man. I did not say Jesus was like a natural man without Christ. I said He was substituting Himself for the sinner, taking upon Himself the penalty for our sins, in His body, His flesh, that is like ours. So instead of being disingenuous, go back and absorb what I said and when you finish address this portion of my post:

 

[Arial]

I guess some people want to reject the Trinity and Hypostatic Union based in a particular interpretation of forsaken.

It might look like that if anything were said in the post it is responding to that @civic post says was said. But it wasn't. In fact he did havoc with the hypostatic union when he inadvertently mixed the natures for the sake of convenience.

 

[Mr GLee]

I agree with the above with the exception of this :

"and Biblical Death is called Separation from God. Jesus became Sin on the Cross, and the midday sky turned black. The Divine Logos of God was irrevocably united to Jesus; Body and Soul: yet a legal Separation took place, even if there wasn’t an Essential Separation of God and Man in Christ. "

death is the separation of the body from the soul, its what happens when we all die and are buried in the grave after we take out last breath.

What does it mean to become sin .. He suffered for our sins

What you call as Divine logos is the Father's Holy Spirit being poured out on sinful flesh

God is not a man Neither could he be a creation rather than the Faithfull Creator

Acts 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[Binyawmene]

Isaiah 59:2...

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46

But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

That's not proof that Jesus died spiritually. I'm assuming you know that the word "forsaken" isn't referring to the idea of inseparability being broken in the Trinity and the inseparability being broken in the Hypostatic Union. After all, the Son has inseparability to the Father and the Holy Spirit is according to the Divine Nature. And the three persons are undivided and inseparable in the economic relations because they are undivided inseparable in the Divine Nature. And the human nature is undivided and inseparable to the Divine Nature by the Son-Person.

Unless you believe "separated" means "forsaken."

 

[Arial]

God is Dead ~ by ReverendRV * April 24

Matthew 27:50 KJV; Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Can God die? The famous Philosopher Neitsche said, “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods, simply to appear worthy of it?” ~ But you ask, “How can WE kill God??”. Philosophers have been taking a stab at killing God for years, sooner or later they will deliver a mortal wound. Some Philosophers say “If it is legitimate to argue against the existence of God, then the existence of God is legitimized”. Atheist admit they are arguing against God for a Christian’s sake; but why would they continue to rally against a God when they’re amongst themselves? Isn’t that the epitome of Idolatry?
This might surprise you to hear, but God can die. ~ Have you ever wished someone were dead?

Jesus said Hatred is Murder from your heart. Do you Hate God? If you find him contemptible for his actions or inactions, you despise him. You are then Like Neitsche and actually have killed God. Does it cause a little adrenaline to run through your chest at the thought you have broken his chains and cast off his bonds? You felt it; didn’t you? You now know that you delight in Murder. ~ Christians believe that God can die; let me explain. God became a Man in the person of Jesus Christ, and Biblical Death is called Separation from God. Jesus became Sin on the Cross, and the midday sky turned black. The Divine Logos of God was irrevocably united to Jesus; Body and Soul: yet a legal Separation took place, even if there wasn’t an Essential Separation of God and Man in Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ died because of the Hatred of Men. ~ But there is bad news for you; Jesus is the LORD of Resurrection! You’ve Murdered a God who rises from the dead! Does this bother you? When you die, he will be on his Judgement Seat; and you will see that he WAS dead. God sends guilty Sinners to Hell for all eternity; you must be Forgiven or else…

Jesus Christ is the GodMan who lived a Sinless life and pleased God his Father. He came to make an Atonement for Sin, bleeding to death. He was buried for three days but rose from the dead; and is now the Judge of everyone’s destiny. We’re Saved by the Grace through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus as LORD and find a Bible believing Church. ~ Neitsche was wrong; God does not remain dead. God is comprised of a Trinity; and God never Separated! But because the Logos of God and Jesus of Nazareth became ‘One’, the Biblical definition of Death was met when Jesus died; even for God. The Bodily Resurrection removed the Legal Separation, thus God and Man were in Union again. ~ An angry and Vengeful God is on your trail…

Revelation 1:18 NIV; I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Isn't this thread about the implications of PSA in "My God,My God, why have you forsaken me?" Where do you stand on that?

 

[ReverendRV]

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46

But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear. Isaiah 59:2

That's not proof that Jesus died spiritually. I'm assuming you know that the word "forsaken" isn't referring to the idea of inseparability being broken in the Trinity and the inseparability being broken in the Hypostatic Union. After all, the Son has inseparability to the Father and the Holy Spirit is according to the Divine Nature. And the three persons are undivided and inseparable in the economic relations because they are undivided inseparable in the Divine Nature. And the human nature is undivided and inseparable to the Divine Nature by the Son-Person.

Unless you believe "separated" means "forsaken."

The question to Civic was, Why do you believe that Death isn't Separation from God?

I'm big into avoiding Category Mistakes. I would like to hear him declare that Death isn't Separation from God...

How about you?

 

[ReverendRV]

Isn't this thread about the implications of PSA in "My God,My God, why have you forsaken me?" Where do you stand on that?

PSA all the way. God Forsook Jesus on the Cross...

 

[ReverendRV]

Isn't this thread about the implications of PSA in "My God,My God, why have you forsaken me?" Where do you stand on that?

Jesus said He WAS Dead. Is Death Separation from God?

 

[makesends]

There should be enough similarity to communicate the point; otherwise, there is no point in communicating.
That being said, there's a difference between equivalency and analogy. When God says 1+1=2 then we can have equivalency. When God says on He is good we can understand by analogy.

Yes, we can understand some.

Truth is, when God says he is good, we still see it backwards. We compare what he says to OUR experience/understanding.

When God communicates, he is working on his goal of us coming to know him, even of preparing us for Heaven —not so much of us gaining information.