Why Have You Forsaken Me?

[fastfredy0]

If there is one thing he says he does not know, I don’t agree it’s because the divine nature didn’t tell him. I believe it’s because he wills not to know.

If the human nature decides that the human nature does not will to know something then the human nature has "free will" where "free will" is a self-determined/self-created will which is impossible for the divine creates all things. Seems that Christ always wanted to do what the divine nature willed, so even if the human nature had "free will" it would IMO says to the divine nature ... I don't want to know when I am coming back, but not my will but thy will be done. (God is sovereign; He always gets His way IMO)
Not that I know...it just seems to fit the attributes of God that He has told us about. It's interested to theorize ... of course, Job got "balled out" when he theorized.

Hey ... when are you going to give me the "last word" ... *giggle*

 

[Carbon]

The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.

What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, "Today, you will be with me in paradise Luke 23:4." For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners.

I throw in the towel on this for now. You have the last word. Not only that but you would be a difficult person to debate with as you are quite brilliant. This would just be too much to deal with, both subjects at once for my little brain.

 

[Carbon]

In the covenant of redemption the Trinity was in total agreement of the plan of redemption. History didn’t wait for man to fall, the covenant was between the Father and the son, not between the Father and us humans. We couldn’t handle it, Jesus agreed to do it in our stead. And who on earth could actually kill the son of God? No one. God killed him. It was according to plan. God’s plan. And there is no way God’s plan could fracture the Trinity.
Though there are gentile dogs, and evil people around him encompassed on both sides, yet Jesus' death is emphatically ascribed to God Himself.
Psalm 22:15
My strength is dried up like a piece of pottery,
And my tongue clings to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.

It's obvious the Lord Jesus was not overcome by his enemies. If Jesus did not voluntarily take this judgment upon himself, they could have had no power to inflict anything on him.

 

[Carbon]

In the covenant of redemption the Trinity was in total agreement of the plan of redemption. History didn’t wait for man to fall, the covenant was between the Father and the son, not between the Father and us humans. We couldn’t handle it, Jesus agreed to do it in our stead. And who on earth could actually kill the son of God? No one. God killed him. It was according to plan. God’s plan. And there is no way God’s plan could fracture the Trinity.
Though there are gentile dogs, and evil people around him encompassed on both sides, yet Jesus' death is emphatically ascribed to God Himself.
Psalm 22:15
My strength is dried up like a piece of pottery,
And my tongue clings to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.

It's obvious the Lord Jesus was not overcome by his enemies. If Jesus did not voluntarily take this judgment upon himself, they could have had no power to inflict anything on him.

I have spoken with people who claim God the Father had nothing to do with the death of Jesus.
But if God had not appointed and sent them, men could not have inflicted any suffering on him whatsoever. He was beyond their reach.
But when God the Father made him to be sin - He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21. - the sin-bearer and therefore the curse bearer, he was placed in a position where he could be seized and treated with indignity and injustice at the hands of man.

 

[Carbon]

He was forsaken so that we aren’t. Jesus became sin for us. As sin, it pleased the Father to crush him.

He was forsaken on the cross that we (believers) might never know that desertion.

 

[civic]

I have spoken with people who claim God the Father had nothing to do with the death of Jesus.
But if God had not appointed and sent them, men could not have inflicted any suffering on him whatsoever. He was beyond their reach.
But when God the Father made him to be sin - He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21. - the sin-bearer and therefore the curse bearer, he was placed in a position where he could be seized and treated with indignity and injustice at the hands of man.

I agree with you here

 

[Carbon]

I have spoken with people who claim God the Father had nothing to do with the death of Jesus.
But if God had not appointed and sent them, men could not have inflicted any suffering on him whatsoever. He was beyond their reach.
But when God the Father made him to be sin - He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21. - the sin-bearer and therefore the curse bearer, he was placed in a position where he could be seized and treated with indignity and injustice at the hands of man.

Jesus did everything according to plan. He always did the Father's will.
We are all human, and sometimes we forget about the purpose Jesus came.
His own parents were confused at times, we are all human we need to be reminded all the time.

And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?” Luke 2:49.


“I can do nothing on My own. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. John 5:30

And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” John 8:29.

I believe it is helpful to keep in mind that Jesus was a sacrifice from the very beginning of his earthly life and that his collective sufferings are to be viewed as belonging to his work of substitution.

 

[Carbon]

In the covenant of redemption the Trinity was in total agreement of the plan of redemption. History didn’t wait for man to fall, the covenant was between the Father and the son, not between the Father and us humans. We couldn’t handle it, Jesus agreed to do it in our stead. And who on earth could actually kill the son of God? No one. God killed him. It was according to plan. God’s plan. And there is no way God’s plan could fracture the Trinity.
Though there are gentile dogs, and evil people around him encompassed on both sides, yet Jesus' death is emphatically ascribed to God Himself.
Psalm 22:15
My strength is dried up like a piece of pottery,
And my tongue clings to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.

It's obvious the Lord Jesus was not overcome by his enemies. If Jesus did not voluntarily take this judgment upon himself, they could have had no power to inflict anything on him.

Of course, as we know, his enemies had no power over him, therefore, there had to be a judicial act on the Father's part and a voluntary act on Jesus' part, that was necessary before he could be delivered into the hands of men.
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over Me at all, if it had not been given to you from above; for this reason the one who handed Me over to you has the greater sin.” John 19:11.

 

[Binyawmene]

I explain it (IMO) by saying that God is immutable which is the say the three members of the Trinity are immutable (premise 1).

I appreciate you trying to explain "forsaken" from the Hypostatic Union framework. But what you need is an actual Scriptural definition. What we can say that forsaken doesn't means separation. That's what I always argue against in PSA topics. Did the Father forsaken the Son, no, in the sense of separation as most PSA suggest. But what sense was he forsaken? According to Biblehub:

to abandon, desert (ἐν equivalent to ἐν τίνι, in some place or condition), i. e. to leave in straits, leave helpless, (colloquial, leave in the lurch): τινα, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34​

In other words, the Father is still there with the Son according to the Divine Nature. The inseparable union of the Trinity (John 8:29, 16:32). But based on this unique particular condition (the cross), the Father is not going to offer help (Matthew 4:6), even though, the Father is still there with the Son (Psalms 22:1 and 24). The Father even listened to his cry for help and he was heard because of his reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7-8). This is for the sake of us and our salvation (Luke 22:42), so the Son was left helpless in that particular circumstanial condition and had to suffer through it. Again, the Father is still there with the Son by doing the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14). Nothing more needs to be added to the definition of "forsaken" like how some people include: randomly quoting verses, emotional despair, separation, and spiritual death, etc.

The forsaken (turning of God's back) is the relationship of the divine nature to the human nature (premise 2); there was no longer a connection (forsaken) between the two natures from the human nature's point of view (conclusion).

I disagree. Based on the definition of "forsaken" is not suggesting a relationship between the two natures as if there was no longer a connection. The two natures are inseparable in the union by the Son. According to the human nature the Son was helpless in the circumstance. The Son 'could' according to the Divine Nature use omnipotence. Since there is no off and on button. By jumping off the cross, instantly healing himself, and zapping everyone dead. Thus, the Son saved himself from death. But that wasn't the purpose of the one will (the divine will of the Father is technically the divine will of the Son, John 6:38, Hebrews 10:7, Matthew 26:39), instead the Son used omnipotence in a different way (1 Corinthians 1:18, 24, 2:8).

Your example below is not how communication of attributes works.

Just like the human nature of Christ did not know the time of his coming because the divine nature of Christ did not communicate it to the human nature. In effect, this knowledge was "held back" (forsaken) from the human nature.

No. I understand the argument you are trying to make. Most Hypostatic Unionists would see this particular argument as being a straw man, ridiculous and absurd. That the Son as God is omniscient according to the Divine Nature doesn't lack knowledge by any logical means. The Son did not know the day and the hour from his humanity, he did know it in his humanity. Because he is the Son as God in the flesh (or 'Deity exist in bodily form'). He doesn't restrict his knowledge as God, but the Son as God is omniscient and knows the day and hour in his humanity.

The Son does know but choose not to make it known to us. For example, the apostles was curious about a particular time of the Son's return: "that day or hour no one knows (eidó)," (Mark 13:32) during the Son's post resurrection his apostles asked again for a specific time: "It is not for you to know (ginóskó) the times or dates" (Acts 1:7), this carries the idea that the Son knows but choose not "to make known or to reveal" to his apostles. Its not meant for them to require such information that the Father placed in his own authority.

 

[Mr GLee]

Premise 1: Christ said He did not know the time of his return. (human nature)
Premise 2: Christ is God (divine nature

I would think there is a big difference between Jesus the Christ as eternal God and Jesus the Son of man. The Christ is not a man. Satan would have mankind believe he is, it's his goal.

God has no nature (beginning ) It would be impossible for Jesus the Son of man to return in the flesh .That would promote reincarnation . His flesh returned to dust like any other human .

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Some did know that it was the faithfull power of the Father as Christ that worked in the Son of man Jesus, just as it worked in them .Same Spirit of faith Christ) as it is written,mutually working in all . We no him no more after the flesh .God is not a man

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

 

[Mr GLee]

I agree with what pastor Baucham said, “just say what’s in the book.”

I would also agree .Say what is in the book as it reveals the meaning of the words written in within

Remember he his communicating asking a questions. to the father that was working in him . He would never leave the Son of man

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Roaring. . . to shout out, cry out with a full continue sound ,;

So far from his the Fathers help as the work of two. Not is no help, as in deserted

In the Son of man's in agony he is crying out to the father . . . how long ?.

Forsaken. . . . to struggle, dispute give up, refuse. How long will you refuse me the help ?

Psalm 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O Lord, how long?

Psalm 89:46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself "for ever?" shall thy wrath burn like fire?

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

 

[Carbon]

I would think there is a big difference between Jesus the Christ as eternal God and Jesus the Son of man. The Christ is not a man. Satan would have mankind believe he is, it's his goal.

God has no nature (beginning ) It would be impossible for Jesus the Son of man to return in the flesh .That would promote reincarnation . His flesh returned to dust like any other human .

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Some did know that it was the faithfull power of the Father as Christ that worked in the Son of man Jesus, just as it worked in them .Same Spirit of faith Christ) as it is written,mutually working in all . We no him no more after the flesh .God is not a man

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

The Lord Jesus Christ is very God and very Man in one person. There are many texts which speak of two natures together.

concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom 1:3-4.

whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. Rom 9:5.

Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory. Tim 3:16.

Both divine and human characteristics and activities are attributed to the same Christ. Christ is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient; He created the world and upholds and governs all things. Christ also had a body and a soul, was born in time, suffered, and died. Jesus Christ is thus God and man in one Person.

 

[Carbon]

I would also agree .Say what is in the book as it reveals the meaning of the words written in within

Remember he his communicating asking a questions. to the father that was working in him . He would never leave the Son of man

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Roaring. . . to shout out, cry out with a full continue sound ,;

So far from his the Fathers help as the work of two. Not is no help, as in deserted

In the Son of man's in agony he is crying out to the father . . . how long ?.

Forsaken. . . . to struggle, dispute give up, refuse. How long will you refuse me the help ?

Psalm 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O Lord, how long?

Psalm 89:46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself "for ever?" shall thy wrath burn like fire?

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Consider this by Brakel.
The human nature of Christ, consisting in the union of body and soul, did not exist independently, was not for some time on its own, but from its very first moment existed by virtue of the personhood of the Son of God. Thus, the human nature, not being an independent person, from the very beginning has existed by means of and within the divine Person of Christ. It is and remains personally united to His divine nature.

This union was established by way of assumption. the divine nature, being a Person, has assumed the human nature (having no independent existence) within the singularity of its personhood. This is according to scripture: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant (Phil 2:6-7). This is also confirmed by Hebrews 2:16, "For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels, but he took on Him the seed of Abraham. "The Seed of Abraham" does not refer here to the natural descendants of Abraham. But seed in mentioned here in the singular, as in Galatians 3:16. "Took" is in the present tense, because the taking upon him the seed of Abraham, that is, the human nature proceeding from Abraham, is a continuous action resulting in an endless union to all eternity.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Lord Jesus Christ is very God and very Man in one person. There are many texts which speak of two natures together.

concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom 1:3-4.

whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. Rom 9:5.

Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory. Tim 3:16.

Both divine and human characteristics and activities are attributed to the same Christ. Christ is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient; He created the world and upholds and governs all things. Christ also had a body and a soul, was born in time, suffered, and died. Jesus Christ is thus God and man in one Person.

Hi .I would offer from my understanding the Son of man, Jesus would never blaspheme name of the Holy Spirit of the Father

One who did trust in the idea of hypostatic union kneeled down in worship at the feet of the Son of man Jesus calling him (dying mankind) Good teaching Master.

The Son of man Jesus gave glory to the Father the one and only Good Teaching as Lord of lords, King of kIngs.
Father of fathers

Mark 10:17-18King James Version17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

God is not a man, never was, never Eternal God could become a creation.

God is supernatural (without nature) without father or mother, no genealogy, no beginning of life or end of Spirit life " I would think it is the spirit of error the father that would give him a nature .

It's his goal, I believe to deceive all the nations that God is a Jewish man as King of kings and Lord of lords.

God is not dying powerless mankind.

 

[Arial]

The Son cannot be separated from the Father or Holy Spirit. And we must never forget Jesus is a Divine Person who assumed a human nature, He is not a human person but a Divine Person. It was the Divine Son bearing our sins in the flesh.

When you say He was not a human person you deny Scripture. Heb 2:14-18 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

In saying what you do, you either mix the two natures or deny the one nature altogether. In addition to that, you bring something into the conversation of Jesus being forsaken on the cross and how this applies to PSA (in accordance with the OP), that does not apply to the OP question, but only deflects it away from the issue----that of the hypostatic union. Jesus cried out that the God had forsaken Him. It is the same cry we have all cried at times in our life---why? why? why?---when the heavens seem like iron, but what we have felt in those moments cannot compare to what Jesus was experiencing and feeling and knowing. What He was going through. He was experiencing what unbelievers will experience, what we all would experience upon our death, if Christ had not substituted Himself, His humanity (the sacrifice being of the same type as those He substitutes for, which the bulls and lambs were not, and so could not accomplish actual redemption)in the place of those God was giving to Him. At that point, the point of being crucified and meeting death, the discussion of the hypostatic union has nothing to do with it. That is just people trying to find an escape hatch for PSA. Besides we can know of the hypostatic union, and can describe it to a degree from what is given in the scriptures concerning it, but no matter how much we probe we will never be able to actually answer the question "how". And so we will never be able to walk up to the cross, so to speak, and try and divide this union into puzzle pieces and make them fit what we want to believe, saying this one did this, and this one did that, and they were all there so---. It is what it is. As long as we are on this earth we will never get beyond believing there is a hypostatic union through faith, and into its interior with full knowledge and comprehension.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (1 Cor 13:12) So trying deny Christ's own words on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!" by using what we only dimly see and pretending, even believing that we see it clearly, is the wrong approach. It won't get the job done.

 

[Arial]

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken, abandoned or forsaken. There was not interruption even for a millisecond in the Tri-Unity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There was no change since God is Immutable. The Son cannot be separated from the Father or Holy Spirit. And we must never forget Jesus is a Divine Person who assumed a human nature, He is not a human person but a Divine Person. It was the Divine Son bearing our sins in the flesh.

It isn't about Jesus' relationship with the Father. It is about what Jesus said and about what was happening in the crucifixion. You have completely left out the substitutionary aspect of the atonement, which is the only way propitiation can be made, and the only way reconciliation between God and sinful man can be made, and therefore the only way in which any can be justified. Which is the other thing you leave out----a just God's just penalty of sin being carried out so that it can be expiated. He took the penalty for our sins upon Himself. Penal. Substitutionary. Atonement.

Col 2:11-15 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our tespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with it legal demands, This he set aside,nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree,that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 5:9-18 Much more then, having been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

 

[Carbon]

It isn't about Jesus' relationship with the Father. It is about what Jesus said and about what was happening in the crucifixion. You have completely left out the substitutionary aspect of the atonement, which is the only way propitiation can be made, and the only way reconciliation between God and sinful man can be made, and therefore the only way in which any can be justified. Which is the other thing you leave out----a just God's just penalty of sin being carried out so that it can be expiated. He took the penalty for our sins upon Himself. Penal. Substitutionary. Atonement.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

When you say He was not a human person you deny Scripture. Heb 2:14-18 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

In saying what you do, you either mix the two natures or deny the one nature altogether. In addition to that, you bring something into the conversation of Jesus being forsaken on the cross and how this applies to PSA (in accordance with the OP), that does not apply to the OP question, but only deflects it away from the issue----that of the hypostatic union. Jesus cried out that the God had forsaken Him. It is the same cry we have all cried at times in our life---why? why? why?---when the heavens seem like iron, but what we have felt in those moments cannot compare to what Jesus was experiencing and feeling and knowing. What He was going through. He was experiencing what unbelievers will experience, what we all would experience upon our death, if Christ had not substituted Himself, His humanity (the sacrifice being of the same type as those He substitutes for, which the bulls and lambs were not, and so could not accomplish actual redemption)in the place of those God was giving to Him. At that point, the point of being crucified and meeting death, the discussion of the hypostatic union has nothing to do with it. That is just people trying to find an escape hatch for PSA. Besides we can know of the hypostatic union, and can describe it to a degree from what is given in the scriptures concerning it, but no matter how much we probe we will never be able to actually answer the question "how". And so we will never be able to walk up to the cross, so to speak, and try and divide this union into puzzle pieces and make them fit what we want to believe, saying this one did this, and this one did that, and they were all there so---. It is what it is. As long as we are on this earth we will never get beyond believing there is a hypostatic union through faith, and into its interior with full knowledge and comprehension.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (1 Cor 13:12) So trying deny Christ's own words on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!" by using what we only dimly see and pretending, even believing that we see it clearly, is the wrong approach. It won't get the job done.

I agree. And this is very important to get right.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

Listen to Jesus' words
11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, 15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father.” John 10:11-18.

 

[Carbon]

Question.

Did the Atonement glorify God?

Yes ?
No?