Why Have You Forsaken Me?

[Carbon]

How's my question silly?

Don't take any offense. I think it was silly. No worries.

 

[Carbon]

(the wow is because that comes across as somewhat mocking of Christ on the cross, you asked).

But do you think that the people who claim Jesus wasn't forsaken by the Father arent mocking Christ?
Just curious.

 

[Binyawmene]

Nope, I guess Psalm 22 is about nothing that actually happened to Jesus while he was crucified, he was just in the scripture-quoting mood.

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? - it never happened. He was just quoting scripture.
22:16
For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.

There were no gentiles, (dogs) Roman soldiers, surrounding him.
And his hands and feet weren't pierced either.

None of this happened, it was just there if Jesus needed something to quote.

That's not a good argument for your position. Why would you assume that Jesus just wanted to quote random Scriptures?

 

[GoKart Mozart]

Where did you copy and paste this from?
Give credit where it is due.

It wasn't copy/pasted. Those are my words.

Search Bible Gateway for "9th hour." Look into the prayer of the hours. This is basic Christianity 101. This concept is in the Didache (the Our Father 3x per day)

 

[Binyawmene]

Don't take any offense. I think it was silly. No worries.

It's not silly but Scriptural.

Do you agree with BibleRef:

Interestingly, the writer invokes all three persons of the Trinity when explaining how this sacrifice fulfills the entire purpose of the new covenant. God the Father can receive our service, because God the Son offers Himself as sacrifice, as guided by God the Holy Spirit. Mention is made, once again, that Jesus' life is "without blemish," a reference to His sinless life.​

 

[Carbon]

That's not a good argument for your position. Why would you assume that Jesus just wanted to quote random Scriptures?

I don't believe Jesus wanted to quote random scriptures. That's my point.

But according to you, saying Jesus just quoted "why has thou forsaken me", as you said you don't believe the Father did forsake him. So if those plain and simple words of Jesus don't describe the truth of his crucifixion, why should we believe any of the other things that took place?

That's not a good argument for your position. No, you actually don't have an argument for your position, just denial.

 

[Carbon]

It wasn't copy/pasted. Those are my words.

Search Bible Gateway for "9th hour." Look into the prayer of the hours. This is basic Christianity 101. It's in the Didache

These also?

*there was no numbering until later. passages were referenced by the first line, like "The Lord is my Shepherd", or later the "Our Father"

 

[GoKart Mozart]

These also?

*there was no numbering until later. passages were referenced by the first line, like "The Lord is my Shepherd", or later the "Our Father"

yes, my words but it's common knowledge that the Scripture being numbered is a fairly new thing.
I separated that out as a note because it read as "stuck in"

(Google search When did Bible passages get numbered?)

 

[Mr GLee]

Psalm 22:1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?


Here is proof that Jesus was forsaken by the Father while he was on the cross.

I have discussed this with a person who claimed Jesus wasn’t forsaken by the Father, and Jesus was just quoting scripture.
R. C. Sproul once said, in defense of PSA (something like) Jesus wasn't in a verse quoting mood while being crucified.

I don't think Jesus was saying. Why have you forsaken me, as in desertion? .If he is making a request in his agony to the father he was not speaking to the air In that way God moved David to make the request .

It would seem to say why is my help so far away. And not that there was no help. Not why have you disowned me.

Psalm 22:1-3King James Version22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

The exclusive work of two working together as one. Father and Son. The father striking the Son wounding him for our transgression

The two prophecies, beginning in Genesis 3:15 and witnessed in Isaiah 53

Genesis 3:15King James Version15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:4-5 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Bruised not dead .A living sacrifice.

The first part of the three days and nights promised demnatarion was in the garden of Gethsemane There the Father struck the Son of man ,Jesus. Three times. with three representing the end of a matter. Three times the father put the help of disciples to sleep even though Jesus was hoping they would help support. The testimony of the the two prophecies.

Why is my help so far away. God is the helper that comes alongside to comfort. teach and strengthen. He will not share that glory with dying mankind the reason I think he puts them asleep, the promise of two

Most people can relate to time when we are all alone like jesu in the garden , But never for suffering for the sins of the Christians or believers

Then they moved to the second demonartion, the hill or skull the cross A different kind.of demonstration

 

[Binyawmene]

I don't believe Jesus wanted to quote random scriptures. That's my point.

But according to you, saying Jesus just quoted "why has thou forsaken me", as you said you don't believe the Father did forsake him.

Straw man. I don't believe Jesus just wanted to quote Scriptures. Who teaches that? Just because I believe God didn't forsake him doesn't mean he was randomly quoting Psalms.

So if those plain and simple words of Jesus don't describe the truth of his crucifixion, why should we believe any of the other things that took place?

Straw man. I also believe the other things did take place like verse 24.

That's not a good argument for your position. No, you actually don't have an argument for your position, just denial.

You haven't even touch my position.

 

[Carbon]

I don't think Jesus was saying. Why have you forsaken me, as in desertion? .If he is making a request in his agony to the father he was not speaking to the air In that way God moved David to make the request .

Jesus wasn't completely abandoned. The Father is well pleased with what the Son has done. Notice the turning point in Psaml 22:19,
But You, Lord, do not be far away;
You who are my help, hurry to my assistance.

It would seem to say why is my help so far away. And not that there was no help. Not why have you disowned me.

See Plalm 22:19.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

But do you think that the people who claim Jesus wasn't forsaken by the Father arent mocking Christ?
Just curious.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking.

 

[Carbon]

Straw man. I don't believe Jesus just wanted to quote Scriptures. Who teaches that? Just because I believe God didn't forsake him doesn't mean he was randomly quoting Psalms.



Straw man. I also believe the other things did take place like verse 22.



You haven't even touch my position.

Of course, it's a straw man.
I never said you said Jesus just wanted to quote scriptures. That's your straw because you don't want to face the fact.

So, you pick an choose what Jesus actually went through? Haha. Okay. Who cares what Jesus or the Psalm says.

I believe I have touched your position.

 

[Carbon]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking.

Think about it.

 

[Binyawmene]

Of course, it's a straw man.
I never said you said Jesus just wanted to quote scriptures. That's your straw because you don't want to face the fact.

You are not making any sense. How is it my straw man when you are the one making a bad argument?

So, you pick an choose what Jesus actually went through? Haha. Okay.

I believe I have touched your position.

What is my position?

 

[civic]

(the wow is because that comes across as somewhat mocking of Christ on the cross, you asked).

Yes He's praying Scripture but He's not just quoting randomly without purpose.

The Gospel writer tells us what is taking place. It's about the 9th hour, when the Psalms are prayed (then and now), and Christ cries out Psalm 22. Which ironically is referenced by the first line*, the thrust of the Psalm is the opposite of that first line. God has not forsaken the psalmist. You correctly point out that the Psalm also notes other events that are taking place, which gives credence to the fact that He didn't stop at the first line.

*there was no numbering until later. passages were referenced by the first line, like "The Lord is my Shepherd", or later the "Our Father"

It’s a declaration He is the Messiah

 

[Carbon]

You are not making any sense. How is it my straw man when you are the one making a bad argument?



What is my position?

Why are you worried about it?

Why do you care what I think?

 

[Carbon]

It’s a declaration He is the Messiah

Oh, we know that. And so much more.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

The forsakenness cannot mean, for example, that the eternal communion between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit was broken. God could not cease to be triune.

Neither could it mean that the Father ceased to love the Son, especially not here and not now when the Son was offering the greatest tribute of filial piety that the Father had ever received.

Nor again could it mean that the Holy Spirit had ceased to minister to the Son. He had come down upon him at his baptism not merely for one fleeting moment but to remain on him (John 1:32), and he would be there to the last as the eternal Spirit through whom the Son offered himself to God (Hebrews 9:14).

And finally, the words are not a cry of despair. Despair would have been sin. Even in the darkness God was “My God” and, though there was no sign of him and though the pain obscured the promises, somewhere in the depths of his soul there remained the assurance that God was holding him. What was true of Abraham was truer still of Jesus: Against all hope, he in hope believed (Romans 4:18).

Yet, with all these qualifiers, this was a real forsaking. Jesus did not merely feel forsaken. He was forsaken; and not only by his disciples, but by God himself. It was the Father who had delivered him up to Judas, to the Jews, to Pilate, and finally to the cross itself.

And now, when he had cried, God had closed his ears. The crowd had not stopped jeering, the demons had not stopped taunting, the pain had not abated. Instead, every circumstance bespoke the anger of God; and there was no countering voice. This time, no word came from heaven to remind him that he was God’s Son, and greatly loved. No dove came down to assure him of the Spirit’s presence and ministry. No angel came to strengthen him. No redeemed sinner bowed to thank him.

Who was he? He cries out in Aramaic, but he doesn’t use the greatest of all the Aramaic words, Abba. Even in the anguish of Gethsemane, distraught and overborne though he was, he had been able to use it (Mark 14:36). But not here.

Like Abraham and Isaac going up to Mount Moriah, he and the Father had gone up to Calvary together. But now Abba is not there. Only El is there: God All-mighty, God All-holy. And he is before El, not now as his Beloved Son, but as the Sin of the World. That is his identity: the character in which he stands before Absolute Integrity.

It is not that he bears some vague relation to sinners. He is one of them, numbered with transgressors. Indeed, he is all of them. He is sin (2 Corinthians 5:21), condemned to bear its curse; and he has no cover. None can serve as his advocate. Nothing can be offered as his expiation. He must bear all, and El will not—cannot—spare him till the ransom is paid in full. ...

Never before had anything come between him and his Father, but now the sin of the whole world has come between them, and he is caught in this dreadful vortex of the curse. It is not that Abba is not there, but that he is there, as the Judge of all the earth who could condone nothing and could not spare even his own Son (Romans 8:32).
​

Donald Macleod, "Why Have You Forsaken Me?" DesiringGod.org, April 3, 2015.

Why Have You Forsaken Me?

Six hours have now passed since the nails were driven home. After a long silence, we hear this anguished cry from the depths of the Savior’s soul.

www.desiringgod.org

 

[civic]

The messianic passage of Psalm 22 was played out before their very eyes, and Jesus quotes the opening verse letting His persecutors know that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah, by quoting Psalm 22. The passage was being lived out before all witnesses of the crucifixion. It is a proclamation and a declaration that He is the Messiah, God's One and Only Son who gave His life as a ransom for many.

What the Father did allow to happen and not rescue His Son from was His death and suffering from those wicked leaders to be our sacrifice for sin. The entire weight of that was upon Him to bear alone, but the Father never left Him. He was there hearing His prayers and answering them upon His death. Moreover, let us not forget Jesus' promise to the sinner, "Today, you will be with me in paradise Luke 23:4." For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. The Trinity was never fractured, broken, or severed for even a moment, but together, the Godhead accomplished salvation for sinners.

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken, abandoned or forsaken. There was not interruption even for a millisecond in the Tri-Unity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There was no change since God is Immutable. The Son cannot be separated from the Father or Holy Spirit. And we must never forget Jesus is a Divine Person who assumed a human nature, He is not a human person but a Divine Person. It was the Divine Son bearing our sins in the flesh.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

It was a Triune effort that worked out to perfection as They had planned from the very beginning. Furthermore, when this reconciliation took place at the cross, we read that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - 2 Corinthians 5:19. The book of Romans states that "God demonstrated His love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). So Jesus' sacrificial atonement both propitiates (turns away God’s wrath) and expiates (covers our sins). Gods’ wrath does not fall on the sacrifice. Scripture teaches us that sin was condemned in the flesh, not that Jesus was condemned (Romans 8:3).

hope this helps !!!