What Jesus actually accomplished on the cross enduring the Fathers wrath.

[Carbon]

There is a spirit of the age claiming Jesus did not endure the Fathers wrath while on the cross and that he was also not forsaken.
Which teaches his sacrifice was not a propitiation nor did it expiate sin. Simply, if our (the elect) Sin wasn’t imputed unto him, he died for nothing. He had no inherent sin of his own.

I believe this is a time for Christian’s to stand up for essential doctrines of the faith. And PSA, Christ enduring God’s wrath, in our place is one of them.
If we have no sacrificial lamb God’s wrath is not appeased. If we have no scapegoat, our sins remain on us. And Christ’s sacrifice was meaningless.

These are two major aspects of Christ's death on the cross. Propitiation and expiation.
The OT has many types and shadows of a propitiary sacrifice which means to remove or appease, satisfy God’s anger. And expiate, which means to remove the sin.

IMO, there is a spirit of the age at work which is sweeping many weary into error. It seems judgment is on the church.

There is a constant catechismal teaching from the world and it is very effective. Scripture teaches we can’t trust our own hearts. It’s wicked, we can’t even understand it.

Jer 17:9,
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

But God knows our hearts, and if we continue to turn to the world and our own wisdom, he will allow it for a time.
Jer 17:10,
“I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Brothers and sisters in Christ… we need to constantly remind each other of these Christian truths. As we need to be in the word, seeking truth and trusting God alone.
Psalm 139:23-24,
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!

Thoughts?

 

[ReverendRV]

There is a spirit of the age claiming Jesus did not endure the Fathers wrath while on the cross and that he was also not forsaken.
Which teaches his sacrifice was not a propitiation nor did it expiate sin. Simply, if our (the elect) Sin wasn’t imputed unto him, he died for nothing. He had no inherent sin of his own.

I believe this is a time for Christian’s to stand up for essential doctrines of the faith. And PSA, Christ enduring God’s wrath, in our place is one of them.
If we have no sacrificial lamb God’s wrath is not appeased. If we have no scapegoat, our sins remain on us. And Christ’s sacrifice was meaningless.

These are two major aspects of Christ's death on the cross. Propitiation and expiation.
The OT has many types and shadows of a propitiary sacrifice which means to remove or appease, satisfy God’s anger. And expiate, which means to remove the sin.

IMO, there is a spirit of the age at work which is sweeping many weary into error. It seems judgment is on the church.

There is a constant catechismal teaching from the world and it is very effective. Scripture teaches we can’t trust our own hearts. It’s wicked, we can’t even understand it.

Jer 17:9,
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

But God knows our hearts, and if we continue to turn to the world and our own wisdom, he will allow it for a time.
Jer 17:10,
“I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Brothers and sisters in Christ… we need to constantly remind each other of these Christian truths. As we need to be in the word, seeking truth and trusting God alone.
Psalm 139:23-24,
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!

Thoughts?

The Penal Substitutionary Atonement is an Imputation...

He became Sin on our behalf, and WE become the Righteousness of God in him...

Penal Substitionary Imputation?!


This is HEAVY...

Is the Penalty ALSO Imputed? It's not warranted, right? Was the Wrath Imputed since it was warranted??

Why not?

 

[Eleanor]

There is a spirit of the age claiming Jesus did not endure the Fathers wrath while on the cross and that he was also not forsaken.
Which teaches his sacrifice was not a propitiation nor did it expiate sin. Simply, if our (the elect) Sin wasn’t imputed unto him, he died for nothing. He had no inherent sin of his own.

I believe this is a time for Christian’s to stand up for essential doctrines of the faith. And PSA, Christ enduring God’s wrath, in our place is one of them.
If we have no sacrificial lamb God’s wrath is not appeased. If we have no scapegoat, our sins remain on us. And Christ’s sacrifice was meaningless.

These are two major aspects of Christ's death on the cross. Propitiation and expiation.
The OT has many types and shadows of a propitiary sacrifice which means to remove or appease, satisfy God’s anger. And expiate, which means to remove the sin.

IMO, there is a spirit of the age at work which is sweeping many weary into error. It seems judgment is on the church.

There is a constant catechismal teaching from the world and it is very effective. Scripture teaches we can’t trust our own hearts. It’s wicked, we can’t even understand it.

Jer 17:9,
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

But God knows our hearts, and if we continue to turn to the world and our own wisdom, he will allow it for a time.
Jer 17:10,
“I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Brothers and sisters in Christ… we need to constantly remind each other of these Christian truths. As we need to be in the word, seeking truth and trusting God alone.
Psalm 139:23-24,
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!

Thoughts?

The spirit of the age in the church has a lot to do with the "God is Love" hermeneutic, as well as the pablum coming from so many pulpits.
We had to dumb it all down to fit the culture so we could get the world to fill the pews in order to pay the bills.

 

[Eleanor]

The Penal Substitutionary Atonement is an Imputation...

He became Sin on our behalf, and WE become the Righteousness of God in him...

Penal Substitionary Imputation?!


This is HEAVY...

Is the Penalty ALSO Imputed? Was the Wrath??

Why not?

Adam's sin was imputed (accounted, charged, credited) to us (Ro 5:12-14), Jesus' righteousness is likewise imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19).

Our sin was imputed (charged, accounted, reckoned) to Christ.

God's penalty and wrath on our sin were not just imputed (accounted, credited) to Christ, they were in actuality paid to Christ, in full, inflicted on Christ, in full, no mere imputation of penalty and wrath to Christ.

 

[ReverendRV]

Adam's sin was imputed (accounted, charged, credited) to us (Ro 5:12-14), Jesus' righteousness is likewise imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19).

Our sin was imputed (charged, accounted, reckoned) to Christ.

God's penalty and wrath on our sin were not just imputed (accounted, credited) to Christ, they were in actuality paid to Christ, in full, inflicted on Christ, in full, no mere imputation of penalty and wrath to Christ.

Hold on, i'm working on something...

Imputation comes to us with Unmerited Consequences...


That's what I'm working on...


Was Christ's Punishment a Merited or Unmerited Consequence? Your Imputed Righteousness comes to you with Unmerited Consequences...

 

[Carbon]

I'm working on something...

Imputation comes with Unmerited Consequences...


That's what I'm working on...


Was Christ's Punishment a Merited or Unmerited Consequence? Your Imputed Righteousness comes with Unmerited Consequences...

You keep talking like that brother and you're going to confuse yourself.

 

[ReverendRV]

You keep talking like that brother and you're going to confuse yourself.

One day I am going to get this all figured out; it'll probably I'll be on my deathbed..

 

[Eleanor]

Hold on, i'm working on something...

Imputation comes with Unmerited Consequences...


That's what I'm working on...


Was Christ's Punishment a Merited or Unmerited Consequence? Your Imputed Righteousness comes with Unmerited Consequences...

Imputation is not about merit or grace.

It is simply to account something to someone, either due to merit or grace, or neither.

It's a neutral word.

 

[Sereni-tea]

There is a spirit of the age claiming Jesus did not endure the Fathers wrath while on the cross and that he was also not forsaken.
Which teaches his sacrifice was not a propitiation nor did it expiate sin. Simply, if our (the elect) Sin wasn’t imputed unto him, he died for nothing. He had no inherent sin of his own.

I believe this is a time for Christian’s to stand up for essential doctrines of the faith. And PSA, Christ enduring God’s wrath, in our place is one of them.
If we have no sacrificial lamb God’s wrath is not appeased. If we have no scapegoat, our sins remain on us. And Christ’s sacrifice was meaningless.

These are two major aspects of Christ's death on the cross. Propitiation and expiation.
The OT has many types and shadows of a propitiary sacrifice which means to remove or appease, satisfy God’s anger. And expiate, which means to remove the sin.

IMO, there is a spirit of the age at work which is sweeping many weary into error. It seems judgment is on the church.

There is a constant catechismal teaching from the world and it is very effective. Scripture teaches we can’t trust our own hearts. It’s wicked, we can’t even understand it.

Jer 17:9,
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

But God knows our hearts, and if we continue to turn to the world and our own wisdom, he will allow it for a time.
Jer 17:10,
“I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Brothers and sisters in Christ… we need to constantly remind each other of these Christian truths. As we need to be in the word, seeking truth and trusting God alone.
Psalm 139:23-24,
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!

Thoughts?

Substitution is a very important motif of the cross that many today neglect. However, I think that the opposite happens as well - many focus on substitution and neglect everything else that the cross accompolished. As you have said, there are many types and shadows in the OT and Jesus fulfilled them all - not just substitution.

 

[Sereni-tea]

The spirit of the age in the church has a lot to do with the "God is Love" hermeneutic, as well as the pablum coming from so many pulpits.
We had to dumb it all down to fit the culture so we could get the world to fill the pews in order to pay the bills.

You are right, many have watered down the Gospel by focusing on the love of God. It is of course true that God is love and that is why Jesus came (John 3:16) but God is also just and had to deal with sin. Sadly, many in the church today do not talk about sin or its consequences.

 

[makesends]

Hold on, i'm working on something...

Imputation comes with Unmerited Consequences...


That's what I'm working on...


Was Christ's Punishment a Merited or Unmerited Consequence? Your Imputed Righteousness comes with Unmerited Consequences...

Imputation is applied without regard to merit or to lack of merit.

 

[Carbon]

Imputation is applied without regard to merit or to lack of merit.

Amen, it's of God's choice and mercy.

 

[makesends]

There is a spirit of the age claiming Jesus did not endure the Fathers wrath while on the cross and that he was also not forsaken.
Which teaches his sacrifice was not a propitiation nor did it expiate sin. Simply, if our (the elect) Sin wasn’t imputed unto him, he died for nothing. He had no inherent sin of his own.

I believe this is a time for Christian’s to stand up for essential doctrines of the faith. And PSA, Christ enduring God’s wrath, in our place is one of them.
If we have no sacrificial lamb God’s wrath is not appeased. If we have no scapegoat, our sins remain on us. And Christ’s sacrifice was meaningless.

These are two major aspects of Christ's death on the cross. Propitiation and expiation.
The OT has many types and shadows of a propitiary sacrifice which means to remove or appease, satisfy God’s anger. And expiate, which means to remove the sin.

IMO, there is a spirit of the age at work which is sweeping many weary into error. It seems judgment is on the church.

There is a constant catechismal teaching from the world and it is very effective. Scripture teaches we can’t trust our own hearts. It’s wicked, we can’t even understand it.

Jer 17:9,
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

But God knows our hearts, and if we continue to turn to the world and our own wisdom, he will allow it for a time.
Jer 17:10,
“I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Brothers and sisters in Christ… we need to constantly remind each other of these Christian truths. As we need to be in the word, seeking truth and trusting God alone.
Psalm 139:23-24,
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!

Thoughts?

This brings up something that is not really a side-issue, but it is treated like it is. I keep finding myself trying not to sound like what is so often criticized —"the Reformed view of humanity is so miserable and dark!"— but I find it impossible to ignore both the fact of, and the relevance of, my own depravity. Here I am, born again, (or so I think), yet I find Romans 7 applicable to me in every way. It is not only in my past but in my present. AND SO, "Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" 2 Corinthians 9:15

That happy-happy testimony of "I used to be this but now everything is going great and it's all figured out (or worked out, or whatever) —we are over the hump now and motoring right along." misled me for a LONG long time. I am not the obedient servant I keep hearing everybody else is.

Just saying: If there is anything good in me, it is Christ. And THAT is worth living for. My own performance, even when obedient, is not.

Now how do you explain that to someone who thinks the validity of their salvation depends on the validity of their decision?

 

[Carbon]

This brings up something that is not really a side-issue, but it is treated like it is. I keep finding myself trying not to sound like what is so often criticized —"the Reformed view of humanity is so miserable and dark!"— but I find it impossible to ignore both the fact of, and the relevance of, my own depravity. Here I am, born again, (or so I think), yet I find Romans 7 applicable to me in every way. It is not only in my past but in my present. AND SO, "Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

I believe every Christian can relate to Romans 7. I know I can.

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" 2 Corinthians 9:15

That happy-happy testimony of "I used to be this but now everything is going great and it's all figured out (or worked out, or whatever) —we are over the hump now and motoring right along." misled me for a LONG long time. I am not the obedient servant I keep hearing everybody else is.

Just saying: If there is anything good in me, it is Christ. And THAT is worth living for. My own performance, even when obedient, is not.

Amen, Christ alone is our righteousness.

Now how do you explain that to someone who thinks the validity of their salvation depends on the validity of their decision?

Just like you did.
But in order for it to be effective for someone, that's God's department.

 

[makesends]

You are right, many have watered down the Gospel by focusing on the love of God. It is of course true that God is love and that is why Jesus came (John 3:16) but God is also just and had to deal with sin. Sadly, many in the church today do not talk about sin or its consequences.

"Why so negative, man? You are such a downer!"

 

[ReverendRV]

Imputation is applied without regard to merit or to lack of merit.

That's what I said. When I say things that make Calvinists wonder what in the world I'm talking about; it's usually because they forget I'm a Fundamentalist. As In I believe in Sola Gratia, right?

I'm not trying to sneak anything crazy into Calvinism or into Evangelicalism...

 

[EarlyActs]

There is a spirit of the age claiming Jesus did not endure the Fathers wrath while on the cross and that he was also not forsaken.
Which teaches his sacrifice was not a propitiation nor did it expiate sin. Simply, if our (the elect) Sin wasn’t imputed unto him, he died for nothing. He had no inherent sin of his own.

I believe this is a time for Christian’s to stand up for essential doctrines of the faith. And PSA, Christ enduring God’s wrath, in our place is one of them.
If we have no sacrificial lamb God’s wrath is not appeased. If we have no scapegoat, our sins remain on us. And Christ’s sacrifice was meaningless.

These are two major aspects of Christ's death on the cross. Propitiation and expiation.
The OT has many types and shadows of a propitiary sacrifice which means to remove or appease, satisfy God’s anger. And expiate, which means to remove the sin.

IMO, there is a spirit of the age at work which is sweeping many weary into error. It seems judgment is on the church.

There is a constant catechismal teaching from the world and it is very effective. Scripture teaches we can’t trust our own hearts. It’s wicked, we can’t even understand it.

Jer 17:9,
The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

But God knows our hearts, and if we continue to turn to the world and our own wisdom, he will allow it for a time.
Jer 17:10,
“I the LORD search the heart
and test the mind,
to give every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Brothers and sisters in Christ… we need to constantly remind each other of these Christian truths. As we need to be in the word, seeking truth and trusting God alone.
Psalm 139:23-24,
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!

Thoughts?

Very good. I exchange several times elsewhere with a person who believed these concepts were appallingly primitive; that Gid should just forgive sin , unattached to a punishment or sacrifice. They never understood the 3rd party thing—that In a sense God does forgive directly, but always in light of the Justice created by Christs sacrifice ‘to be just and justifier’ of Rom 3. He’s not one or the other. The Judge of all became the sacrifice for all who believe.