Reformed theology teaches no such thing. That is your perception of it, but it does not make it so. You cannot successfully argue against something by attempting to do so by what it is not. That is simple logic.
Well perhaps Reformed theologians don't teach that; however, that is the logical result from what they do teach. In the Reformed Theological soteriology, who else but God has the power to cause the spirit of the unborn or the just born to be dead and who but God has failed to regenerate anyone?
All are born in a depraved condition because of the separation, the alienation. of mankind to God that Adam brought into the world. Not God. All are justly born condemned---in a future sense since they most certainly will sin----except for those He chooses according to His will to give to the Son.
If they are born in a depraved condition because of anything outside of them, then it must be God. He is the only one with the power to accomplish that. Yes, in a future sense they will, if they live long enough and are not too mentally feeble to understand what sin is, sin. But until they do actually commit sin, they are not depraved. The spirit God gave them is pure and clean and alive. It is only in their sin that they are dead in trespasses and sins. Never in the Scriptures does it say that anyone is dead in someone else sins. In fact God, through the prophet Ezekiel, has produced the entire chapter, Ezekiel 18, declaring that
"The soul (the spirit) who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son." Jesus said,
"but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (Matt 6:15). Paul echoed that with
"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses" (Col 2:13). And there is nothing in Scripture that says otherwise.
These he safely brings to Christ in faith. That is mercy. And by His own words He declares that He will show mercy on whom He shows mercy, and not on those who He does not show mercy. The rest receive just justice for their sins.
The discussion in Romans 9 is Paul's argument that simply being a brother, a kinsman according to the flesh, a Jew who belongs to God's chosen (elect) nation of Israel, is not a guarantee that God will save them, and that is not a failure on God's part. The message there is God's using whomever He chooses to bring Jesus and salvation to the world. And in doing so, God is not obligated to save them. I can provide a lot more to this, but will leave it at that for now, except to note that they do not support the Calvinist definition of elect.
Uh Jim, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden where God dwelled among man, and would have dwelt among all men had the transgression of Adam not occured. They were cast into a cursed land, had a curse placed on them, lost access to the tree that would keep them alive and the dwelling place God had created in all its glorious perfection for them to live.
Uh, Arial, where in all of that discussion does it say that God dwelled among man any differently after Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden. Yes, God conversed directly with Adam and Eve while they were in the Garden. But God did so also after they were ejected. Did God not speak with Cain directly (Gen 4:6) just as He had with Adam and Eve; or with Noah (Gen 6:13); or with Abraham (Gen 12:1)?
No one is born in that place anymore. Therefore, all are alienated from God and dwell in what Col calls the kingdom of darkness. It is this kingdom of darkness that Jesus rescues us from, bringing us into His kingdom. In an already/not yet tension just as Abraham was in---looking forward to the heavenly kingdom. And this aspect of redemption will take place when Christ returns. See Rev 21: 1-5.
I really do not want to get into the discussion of whether or not Revelation 21:1-5 is speaking about a newly revised Garden of Eden.
That specific statement doesn't, because it was not intended to. The Bible does make a distinction between the lost and the saved---and the rest of the doctrines of grace in Reformed theology (ULIP) addresses the distinction and the how and why of it, according to what the fullness of the Scripture teaches on the subject. FYI reformed theology is much more than the TULIP and some of it you no doubt agree with.
Yes, but the distinction is not established by the T and the U assumes a distinction not, I argue, established anywhere in Scripture. I don't argue against a distinction. I don't even argue against election. I do argue against the Reformed Theology of how that election is derived.
And yes, I understand that Reformed Theology is much more than TULIP and much of that I agree with. But TULIP are the key ingredients in Reformed Theology Soteriology. And that I definitely cannot agree with it
Oh I see the covering slipping. The objection here seems to be the idea of us having nothing to do with our redemption is what is truly found abhorrent. In order to keep that bit of self determination alive, simply change who God is and say its so.
No, it is not so much about having nothing to do with our redemption; rather it is about our not even wanting redemption unless God first zaps our mental capacity to be able to understand what He says. Reformed Theology refuses to think that God has the capability to address and communicate effectively with anyone until they are regenerated. But in fact, God had been doing that for the whole history of mankind before Jesus Christ came to earth as the Messiah. You posit the notion that God presented the entire Law system to Israel and then didn't give them the necessary wherewithal to even respond. Please note here that regeneration is not an act of God ever stated to be exercised before the Cross of Christ. Regeneration is in fact a New Covenant act of God.
Were you born in the Garden of Eden? That would mean your parents had to be in the Garden, and their parents before them, and theirs before them----eventually all the way back to Adam and Eve, who would have had to walk back into the Garden they were locked away from, to give birth to each of their children. That would mean everyone is born in the Garden with access to the tree of life---but all partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It would mean second by second since the dawn of creation, God is throwing each person out of the garden when they eat of that forbidden tree. We are born alienated from God. There is no way around that.
What you, Reformed Theology, present is that the whole of mankind is charged with the sin of Adam. And that is simply not the case. God would not do such a thing and He has stated that He would not. Why you insist on blaming God for your sins is beyond me.
I have been studying the teachings of Reformed theology for over forty years and never have I come upon such a teaching. As I said at the beginning, you cannot successfully refute Reformed theology or anything else, by arguing against what it is not. And you certainly cannot do so by not even reading the evidence that was given for my assertion----and my assertion is from the Reformed view, and you say in this quote that my view is exactly the opposite of what I stated ---you cannot refute what I said without even bothering to read the scriptural support to what I claimed.
You can state what you want, but you cannot refute the fact that one being born with a dead spirit and incapable of ever being able to understand God's written revelation without first being regenerated, makes God the killer of the spirit of man. And that is simply horrific.
And for what it is worth I have been studying the Scriptures for well over 40 years, fact over 60 years some of which was a formal education, and will never concede that God is the ogre that Reformed Theology makes Him out to be.
Well, that is not what I said. It isn't the creation that does anything. It is always God, and I was asserting that redemption is restoring a corrupted creation through the redemption of persons. This time read the scriptures that prove this. And then get back to me in connection with the scriptures given. I will post them for you again.
I agree that redemption is the restoring of corrupted persons and only that. There is no corruption except persons. And that setting free of the bondage of corruption and the obtaining the freedom of the glory of the children of God (Rom 8:21) is that of the spirit of man, nothing else.
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