• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

Total Depravity is the first element in the doctrines of grace. These doctrines are an attempt to establish what the grace of grace is--- why it is necessary, how it operates to bring a person to Christ in faith and keeps them in Christ. "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith---and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:8-10)

These five doctrines of grace are biblically worked out through the full counsel of God on salvation and they deal with each element of salvation. Why it takes grace, who receives this grace, the role of the atonement of Christ, how grace is given, and the security of this grace. Humans are not the central issue in arriving at these doctrines, but God is. Humans are the beneficiaries of God's grace. It is the grace of God itself that is being placed in sound biblical doctrine, that can be checked and affirmed by the Scriptures. The first doctrine to be established is the condition of man before the Almighty God. Once that is established the other doctrines in the letters of the acronym TULIP, follow naturally, according to Scripture. If T is true according to Scripture, then U must be true according to Scripture, if T and U are true according to Scripture, L according to Scripture must be and so on. If the first four are true the only conclusion is the P. The basis for each letter is not human logic but according to the Bible declarations on the matter.

For the sake of space, I cannot be fully comprehensive in giving all the scriptures that support the T. Any questions can be answered as they come up---even involving the ULIP and how they relate to the T.

My purpose is this OP is twofold.
1. To establish the relationship between God and man that makes His grace necessary.
2. To alleviate the tendency of opponents to the doctrines of grace to base all opposition on a philosophical "free will." Free will or even man's will at all, is not actually a part of the doctrine. It has been made to be. Total depravity is a doctrine of God. The doctrine in Total Depravity utterly rules out any legitimate discussion of man's will, "free" or otherwise, in any of the following doctrines of grace.

Total depravity begins with who God is, so we must start at the beginning. In the creation account of Gen. we learn that everything came into existence by and from and for God. We learn that earth and all that it is in it was created as man's home, everything was good and perfect. Each created thing having its place and its purpose, with God dwelling there, providing for and communicating with Adam and Eve and they with Him. They were given a commission to tend to and care for the Garden where He placed them and all of creation. Man alone was created in the image and likeness of God. Which means he was similar to God in many ways, but exactly like Him in no way. As such he was a sentient being in that he could think, feel, move about, reason, make choices, etc. Not the least of which is have relationships, the primary one being an intimate relationship with God, and second with each other. This demanded that Adam and Eve conduct themselves with each other and creation itself as His image bearers.

The two trees, were there, one the tree of life, which would keep life in mankind, which he could eat of as he could of every other tree but one. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To eat of this tree would bring death. This shows us that Adam and Eve, were created mortal---able to die----and corruptible, but not corrupt. The consequence of Adam eating of that forbidden fruit, (for Eve was deceived, but Adam's eating was open rebellion) was both of them being cast out of the Garden, away from access to the tree of life, and a curse put on them and the ground. The intimate relationship between God and man was severed and through Adam as the first man, to all the rest of mankind, and even to the creation itself. (1 Cor 15:45-47) In that passage we see the first Adam and the second Adam, Christ, who we see promised in Gen 3 when God cursed the serpent. The seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head.

The intimate relationship mankind was created to have with his Creator was broken. Humanity became a race of sinners. Sure, they could still do some good things, they were not always as bad as they could be. They still had a conscience. They still had the image and likeness of God with which they were created. What they could not do was reconcile themselves to God and regain that intimate relationship.

They could not undo what they had become. And that does not only apply to Adam and Eve, but to all born after them for everyone is made of the same stuff as Adam. We sin. We have sinful desires and act on them. We even like a great many of them. God and man stand as enemies, not friends. That is the relationship we have to God. There is nothing we can do to rectify the situation, to become justified before God and reconciled to Him.

God Himself must do everything necessary for that reconciliation. And only His grace will do so. There is nothing in us that deserves reconciliation with Him, and nothing we can do that will merit reconciliation. We have to receive from God, the righteousness of the Seed of the woman, who conquers the deceiving serpent, imputed to us

This is the doctrine of Total Depravity and this is where is comes from, simplified and condensed. It has nothing to do with our will---at all. It is purely by the grace of God that any can be saved.
The title was the first thing I saw, which in my depraved nature had me looking for your "HA!" to bark at the Arminian and Pelagian, so bent on self-determinism: If God did not give us a choice in imputing or otherwise causing the sin nature in man, then why should we assume he gives us a choice in Regeneration? I grew up taught both, (original sin and all its implications and derivations, and synergism), causing an obvious and distressing conflict, which was only resolved by finding out that my decision is NOT the hinge of my eternity. I love to rest and rejoice in the mercy of God.

The same is obvious of many things, but when I mention them, the only one that seems to add up to anything to them, is the first one: I had no choice in existing at all, nor in my first birth. So why should my spirit being remade be my choice? How is that unjust? Because it is a matter of morality? That is what they claim. But it is a matter of being! IN HIM vs me trying to break even as if I was my own judge.

This is about God, and not us.
 
Last edited:
I do wish you could stick to and address the subject of the OP instead of moving away from it. But FYI the resurrected and glorified Christ was physical. The believers resurrected and glorified bodies will be physical, immortal and incorruptible.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death itself. This happens when Jesus returns and the dead in Christ are raised imperishable and those alive at His return are changed----imperishable 1 Cor 15
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
 
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
It's important to recognize we know very little about the Spiritual side of God's creation. Even in Heaven, we are God's creation, though above the angels in station and ability. What we consider natural (material) may well not be what God considers physical. After all, we don't even know what gravity, time, energy and matter are even made of, in the end. And we are pretty clueless about will, consciousness and existence.
 
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
That doesn't mean it isn't physical. Spirit and spiritual are not the same thing.
 
Of course.
What is your objection to Total Depravity as it was expressed in the OP? And remember the title and the objectives stated in the OP.
 
It's important to recognize we know very little about the Spiritual side of God's creation. Even in Heaven, we are God's creation, though above the angels in station and ability. What we consider natural (material) may well not be what God considers physical. After all, we don't even know what gravity, time, energy and matter are even made of, in the end. And we are pretty clueless about will, consciousness and existence.
I lost track, but this is where I was going with a comment I made a few days ago. Some years ago, I was looking into particle physics and such and learned something of partial spin. Apparently, partials have been observed blinking in and out of visibility as they rotated. What popped into my mind is the word that declared that all things are held together by Him…the Word Christ. What I imagined is this universe at a basic level (by extension to the macro), is being upheld from another realm of reality and that other ‘place’…would by some necessity have laws defining and confining its parameters.
I tend to factor in what I believe the Lord showed me when looking into ‘Logos’…being the rational reason for all things.
 
What is your objection to Total Depravity as it was expressed in the OP? And remember the title and the objectives stated in the OP.
It assigns to God the creating or the forming of dead spirits that are prohibited from even obeying Him.
 
That doesn't mean it isn't physical. Spirit and spiritual are not the same thing.
And it doesn't mean that it is. Too many seem to picture the next life for the saved as being back in the Garden of Eden as man was originally placed. But there will be billions of "spiritual bodies" who have been saved. There is no way to even imagine such an existence. Besides, given that our bodies are the very source and drivers for the sins that we commit, it is hard for me to even want to be stuck with one in the hereafter forever.
 
It's important to recognize we know very little about the Spiritual side of God's creation. Even in Heaven, we are God's creation, though above the angels in station and ability. What we consider natural (material) may well not be what God considers physical. After all, we don't even know what gravity, time, energy and matter are even made of, in the end. And we are pretty clueless about will, consciousness and existence.
We have a pretty good idea of what gravity, time, energy and matter are. We just don't know physically why they are. We know that positive charges and negative charges are attractive and we can measure that attraction. We just don't really know physically why they are attractive. We know that in a closed system entropy tends to increase and we can measure such increases. We just don't really know physically why it tends to increase. Those of us who believe in God of the Bible tend to simply say that God is the why of all things. But, that is not a testable theory and thus does not produce a good physically satisfactory answer. But that is the way it is and I think that is the way it will remain, at least for as long as this world still exists.
 
It assigns to God the creating or the forming of dead spirits that are prohibited from even obeying Him.
Show me where I said anything of the sort anywhere in the OP? I am not asking you to give me your unsupported opinion of total depravity, or to rewrite the Doctrine according to you own feelings. Respond to the OP according to what the OP actually says. Is there anything in the doctrine as I laid it out that has anything to do with the human will? Or is it completely God centered?
 
And it doesn't mean that it is. Too many seem to picture the next life for the saved as being back in the Garden of Eden as man was originally placed. But there will be billions of "spiritual bodies" who have been saved. There is no way to even imagine such an existence. Besides, given that our bodies are the very source and drivers for the sins that we commit, it is hard for me to even want to be stuck with one in the hereafter forever.
I am not responding to any more of your posts that are off topic and pure speculation at that. I truly wish you would stop posting in that manner. It has derailed the thread.
 
I am not responding to any more of your posts that are off topic and pure speculation at that. I truly wish you would stop posting in that manner. It has derailed the thread.
I am happy to leave you to your own theological errors.
Show me where I said anything of the sort anywhere in the OP? I am not asking you to give me your unsupported opinion of total depravity, or to rewrite the Doctrine according to you own feelings. Respond to the OP according to what the OP actually says. Is there anything in the doctrine as I laid it out that has anything to do with the human will? Or is it completely God centered?
You didn't say anything of the sort. I did.
 
I am happy to leave you to your own theological errors.

You didn't say anything of the sort. I did.
Then you weren't even talking about the doctrine of total depravity.
 
Yes, I was talking about the heresy of total depravity.
I would offer.

Depravity. = "hereditary tendency of humanity to commit sin"

Job 23:11-16 My foot has held fast to His steps; His ways have I kept and not turned aside. I have not gone back from the commandment of His lips; I have esteemed and treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food.

The food for our new born again spirit. The same food the disciples knew not of. . . the power to both hear and perform the good will of the Holy Father Yoked with him our burden can be lighter. Without him we can do nothing to please Him.

I would think why deprive him of His new creative "Let there be" and the new creation "was glorious"

Job 23:11-16But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.For He performs [that which He has] planned for me, and of many such matters He is mindful.Therefore am I troubled and terrified at His presence; when I consider, I am in dread and afraid of Him.For God has made my heart faint, timid, and broken, and the Almighty has terrified me,
 
Yes, I was talking about the heresy of total depravity.
There is a difference in discussing what something is, and in this case it was to dispel a particular misconception about that something, and simply giving one's opinion of the something; and doing so according to the misconception.
 
Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

Got answer above, very insightful imo.
 
I would offer.

Depravity. = "hereditary tendency of humanity to commit sin"
Unfortunately, regeneration does not change the tendency of humanity to commit sin. It does indeed give the help to fight off that tendency.
 
Yes, I was talking about the heresy of total depravity.
That statement in order to have any merit would require something besides the accusation. To you it is a heresy because it violates the view of God that is held. I.E. the POST stating that Total Depravity goes against every thing that God is (paraphrase).

One of the very points of the OP however is that the five doctrines of grace given as the acronym TULIP in Reformed theology, is God centered and not man centered. And that Total Depravity establishes the foundation of what follows by showing biblically first who God is, the relationship between God and His creature mankind at creation. and what happened to that relationship as a result of Adam's transgression. IOW it established the very necessity of the grace of God in redemption. (Redemption is the story of the Bible from beginning to end.)

Opposition to TD---and therefore distorting all that follows-----begins with a view of mankind that is not biblical, and then moves on to form a view of God that fits with that view of man----that also does not comport with God's revealed declaration of Himself that we find in the Bible.

So it could be truthfully said, that doing that, is tantamount to man building an image of God in man's image.
 
Back
Top