Total Depravity

[atpollard]

I have NEVER SAID THIS. How can I chose salvation?

You are misreading

I have no idea what these terms mean. nor to be honest do I care.

Lets discuss the word. Not isms..

You can pick the chapter that you like, the Bible is full of stories that illustrate the point. Jesus or Peter speak to a crowd of people and some accept what is said, repent and follow, while others gather stones to kill Jesus or simply mock what they see and hear.

Clearly, JESUS was the same JESUS speaking to those that repented and those that gathered stones. Clearly the WORDS spoken were the same words heard by both groups. Clearly the Holy Spirit and God the Father are the same SPIRIT and FATHER for both groups. So WHY SO DIFFERENT A REACTION?

Was the difference something INSIDE the people?
If so, did God place something INSIDE those that believed, or was it something INNATE to the people that God had nothing to do with?

You can pick any story in the Bible where some believed and others did not and make your case from the WORD of your choice.

That is what he is asking your opinion on.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You can pick the chapter that you like, the Bible is full of stories that illustrate the point. Jesus or Peter speak to a crowd of people and some accept what is said, repent and follow, while others gather stones to kill Jesus or simply mock what they see and hear.

Clearly, JESUS was the same JESUS speaking to those that repented and those that gathered stones. Clearly the WORDS spoken were the same words heard by both groups. Clearly the Holy Spirit and God the Father are the same SPIRIT and FATHER for both groups. So WHY SO DIFFERENT A REACTION?

Was the difference something INSIDE the people?
If so, did God place something INSIDE those that believed, or was it something INNATE to the people that God had nothing to do with?

You can pick any story in the Bible where some believed and others did not and make your case from the WORD of your choice.

That is what he is asking your opinion on.

I think Jesus answered this best

You do not see because you do NOT BELIEVE - John 6

What was different is one group saw and believed, the other saw and did not believe.

Its actually quite simple

 

[Hazelelponi]

You do not see because you do NOT BELIEVE - John 6

Are these the verses from John 6 you are wanting to quote?

John 6:36-37 "But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

 

[makesends]

I think Jesus answered this best

You do not see because you do NOT BELIEVE - John 6

What was different is one group saw and believed, the other saw and did not believe.

Its actually quite simple

You haven't shown WHY they did and didn't see and believe.

 

[atpollard]

Just for the record, it is also OK to say “I don’t know why some ‘saw and believed’ and others did not”. That is actually the OFFICIAL ANSWER of the Lutheran Church … “it is a Mystery!”

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are these the verses from John 6 you are wanting to quote?

John 6:36-37 "But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

you still must take his words to heart.

and you should continue to get the jist

John 6: 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

the ones who come are those who believe. the ones who do not believe.. well they will never come.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You haven't shown WHY they did and didn't see and believe.

Niether did Jesus. He just said they did not see and believe.

I take him at his word..

again, I try not to read into everything somethign that is not there.

But I do believe we have an answer given by paul and written down by the Dr Luke

Acts 28:27 — 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” ’

God did not close their eyes. they did

God did not make them hard of hearing, they did.,

because they did not want to see what judged them

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Just for the record, it is also OK to say “I don’t know why some ‘saw and believed’ and others did not”. That is actually the OFFICIAL ANSWER of the Lutheran Church … “it is a Mystery!”

this would be better I guess that saying nothing, But I think we can know

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You can pick the chapter that you like, the Bible is full of stories that illustrate the point. Jesus or Peter speak to a crowd of people and some accept what is said, repent and follow, while others gather stones to kill Jesus or simply mock what they see and hear.

Clearly, JESUS was the same JESUS speaking to those that repented and those that gathered stones. Clearly the WORDS spoken were the same words heard by both groups. Clearly the Holy Spirit and God the Father are the same SPIRIT and FATHER for both groups. So WHY SO DIFFERENT A REACTION?

Was the difference something INSIDE the people?
If so, did God place something INSIDE those that believed, or was it something INNATE to the people that God had nothing to do with?

You can pick any story in the Bible where some believed and others did not and make your case from the WORD of your choice.

That is what he is asking your opinion on.

once again, Luke gives us the answer through the words of Paul


Acts 28: 23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved. 25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, 26 saying,

‘Go to this people and say:
“Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;
And seeing you will see, and not perceive;

27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” ’

everything you asked is here

Paul spoke to a crowd

Some believed. and Some did not they all heard the same words from the spirit. but they all did not agree. why?

1. As the OT prophet said - (this is not just a NT thing, it is an OT thing also)
2. People will hear and not understand, they will see and not percieve.
why??

1. Their hears have grown dull
2. They have ears that can not hear
3. They have CLOSED their eyes
(basically they have shut their eyes and ears)

Otherwise. if they do not close them, they WILL SEE and they WILL HEAR

and if this happened THEY WOULD TURN.

and they would be HEALED.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Notes taken from Steven J. Lawson, Foundations of Grace (1400 BC–AD 100), vol. 1, A Long Line of Godly Men

Radical Depravity in James: Concise with Scripture

James vividly portrays the corruption of the unregenerate human heart, highlighting its total inability to respond rightly to God. This underscores the necessity of God's monergistic work in regeneration.

1. Unsatisfied Lust:Fallen nature craves sin.
   • James 1:14-15: "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
2. Unrepentant Heart:Rejects God's Word with anger.
   • James 1:19-21: "...slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness that God requires. Therefore put away all filthiness...and receive with meekness the implanted word..."
3. Unresponsive Ears:Hears but doesn't obey the Word.
   • James 1:22-24: "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."
4. Unbridled Tongue:Reveals an uncontrolled heart.
   • James 1:26: "If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless."
5. Unaccompanied Profession:Faith without works is dead.
   • James 2:14: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"
6. Uncrucified Ambition:Selfishness and jealousy dominate.
   • James 3:14-16: "But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts...For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice."
7. Undevoted Spirit:Loves the world, not God.
   • James 4:4: "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?"
8. Unsubmissive Will:Lives independently of God's will.
   • James 4:13-17: "Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.' As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil."
9. Undiminished Greed:Craves worldly possessions, mistreating others.
   • James 5:1-6: "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you...Behold, the wages of the laborers...which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you..."

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Notes taken from Steven J. Lawson, Foundations of Grace (1400 BC–AD 100), vol. 1, A Long Line of Godly Men

Radical Depravity in James: Concise with Scripture

James vividly portrays the corruption of the unregenerate human heart, highlighting its total inability to respond rightly to God. This underscores the necessity of God's monergistic work in regeneration.

1. Unsatisfied Lust:Fallen nature craves sin.
   • James 1:14-15: "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
2. Unrepentant Heart:Rejects God's Word with anger.
   • James 1:19-21: "...slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness that God requires. Therefore put away all filthiness...and receive with meekness the implanted word..."
3. Unresponsive Ears:Hears but doesn't obey the Word.
   • James 1:22-24: "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."
4. Unbridled Tongue:Reveals an uncontrolled heart.
   • James 1:26: "If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless."
5. Unaccompanied Profession:Faith without works is dead.
   • James 2:14: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"
6. Uncrucified Ambition:Selfishness and jealousy dominate.
   • James 3:14-16: "But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts...For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice."
7. Undevoted Spirit:Loves the world, not God.
   • James 4:4: "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?"
8. Unsubmissive Will:Lives independently of God's will.
   • James 4:13-17: "Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.' As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil."
9. Undiminished Greed:Craves worldly possessions, mistreating others.
   • James 5:1-6: "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you...Behold, the wages of the laborers...which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you..."

this is all great,

But does not change my view..

I disagree with this article.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

this is all great,

But does not change my view..

I disagree with this article.

Its just scripture that points out how we are tainted with sin, totally depraved.

Than means that you believe man is basically good, is that correct?

 

[makesends]

Notes taken from Steven J. Lawson, Foundations of Grace (1400 BC–AD 100), vol. 1, A Long Line of Godly Men

Radical Depravity in James: Concise with Scripture

James vividly portrays the corruption of the unregenerate human heart, highlighting its total inability to respond rightly to God. This underscores the necessity of God's monergistic work in regeneration.

1. Unsatisfied Lust:Fallen nature craves sin.
   • James 1:14-15: "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
2. Unrepentant Heart:Rejects God's Word with anger.
   • James 1:19-21: "...slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness that God requires. Therefore put away all filthiness...and receive with meekness the implanted word..."
3. Unresponsive Ears:Hears but doesn't obey the Word.
   • James 1:22-24: "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."
4. Unbridled Tongue:Reveals an uncontrolled heart.
   • James 1:26: "If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless."
5. Unaccompanied Profession:Faith without works is dead.
   • James 2:14: "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?"
6. Uncrucified Ambition:Selfishness and jealousy dominate.
   • James 3:14-16: "But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts...For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice."
7. Undevoted Spirit:Loves the world, not God.
   • James 4:4: "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God?"
8. Unsubmissive Will:Lives independently of God's will.
   • James 4:13-17: "Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.' As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil."
9. Undiminished Greed:Craves worldly possessions, mistreating others.
   • James 5:1-6: "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you...Behold, the wages of the laborers...which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you..."

Good post

Unsubmissive Will:Lives independently of God's will.

• James 4:13-17: "Instead you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.' As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil."

Number 8 above seems to me to conflate the two wills of God, making for lack of cogency in argument. It defines Unsubmissive Will as, "living independently of God's will", but the James quote. "...you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.'" That refers to the decree of God, which will happen regardless of submission.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Its just scripture that points out how we are tainted with sin, totally depraved.

well according to how he sees scripture. i see it differently

Than means that you believe man is basically good, is that correct?

No, this is not correct.

and it saddens me that we still are on this road of you not understanding what I am saying..

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Good post

Number 8 above seems to me to conflate the two wills of God, making for lack of cogency in argument. It defines Unsubmissive Will as, "living independently of God's will", but the James quote. "...you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.'" That refers to the decree of God, which will happen regardless of submission.

I can see this.

Suggestion on the edit of unsubmissive will?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

well according to how he sees scripture. i see it differently

No, this is not correct.

and it saddens me that we still are on this road of you not understanding what I am saying..

So, per the thread title.

What is your definition of total depravity?

Is man born in sin?

I ask because if you do not agree with the scriptures given in that article, I do not know what your thoughts are on the subject.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So, per the thread title.

What is your definition of total depravity?

Is man born in sin?

Total depravity in my view is mankind is depraved. He has a hole in his heart. left when the fall of mankind force the barrier between God and man. Which means all man is on a lifetime mission to fill that hole. sadly we fill it with tainted fuel (sin) and it never feeds us, so we continue (that's why we get addicted)

because of this, we are unable to produce fruit. unable to really do any spiritual good (I can be morally good because I love my spouse or kids. and am created in the image of my creator but I can not Love as God loved, which is what God requires..

this is a basic understanding of my view

I ask because if you do not agree with the scriptures given in that article, I do not know what your thoughts are on the subject.

I do not believe a man is totally depraved in that he can not see he is in spiritual danger, and headed to eternal death, (the fact we have many legalistic churches proves this point, trying to save themselves with their works) and can not understand and see that God loved them so much, he sent his son to die for them and make a decision to recieve in faith, or as Paul said in acts. close their eyes or cover their ears/.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Total depravity in my view is mankind is depraved. He has a hole in his heart. left when the fall of mankind force the barrier between God and man. Which means all man is on a lifetime mission to fill that hole. sadly we fill it with tainted fuel (sin) and it never feeds us, so we continue (that's why we get addicted)

because of this, we are unable to produce fruit. unable to really do any spiritual good (I can be morally good because I love my spouse or kids. and am created in the image of my creator but I can not Love as God loved, which is what God requires..

this is a basic understanding of my view

I do not believe a man is totally depraved in that he can not see he is in spiritual danger, and headed to eternal death, (the fact we have many legalistic churches proves this point, trying to save themselves with their works) and can not understand and see that God loved them so much, he sent his son to die for them and make a decision to recieve in faith, or as Paul said in acts. close their eyes or cover their ears/.

I understand you now.

The problem with those people is that they are under preaching that "tickles their ears" and are self -deceived thinking they are on their way to heaven and in reality on their way to hell.

This is a form of pride and they want the by products of Christ without the obedience.

 

[Hazelelponi]

t defines Unsubmissive Will as, "living independently of God's will", but the James quote. "...you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.'" That refers to the decree of God, which will happen regardless of submissio

I see this speaking of people who were not acknowledging God in their behavior/speech and boasting in their imaginings.

Is this not an example of an unsubmissive will living independently of God's will,? The segment ends with:

"if anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them,."

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I understand you now.

The problem with those people is that they are under preaching that "tickles their ears" and are self -deceived thinking they are on their way to heaven and in reality on their way to hell.

This is a form of pride and they want the by products of Christ without the obedience.

well the legalist thinks it is their obedience that makes them righsous (the catholic, the jew, The arminain, and many other churches)

In fact, if you look 99 percent of religions in the world. Think this.. That we get to God by our own deeds and righteous works.

Grace based salvation through faith is a small part of the modern and even the old church. Thats why I always call it, the narrow way.