Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

[JIM]

You are saying that if in Adam all sin then it is God who makes them sin and that doesn't even make sense.

And you are saying that if in Adam all sin, then it is Adam who makes them sin? Now that most definitely does not make sense.

As though all men are autonomous, with no obligation to God and God is not autonomous. Man's sin is not outside of him, it is inside of him. They are born in a condition of not being reconciled to God.

Nok they are not born in a condition of not being reconciled to God. They are born in a condition of not needing to be reconciled to God. They become that way when they disobey, when they sin.

It is Adam who put all mankind in that condition. Only Adam, as the only man, could put us in that condition, and he did.

Adam didn't do anything to you, What he did was to disobey God; he sinned and got ejected from the Garden. That is it.

Forget about the word depraved for a minute. That is just a term used in defining the condition of mankind before God.

There is nothing wrong with the word depraved. That is the condition of one who has sinned, and has not yet been redeemed. But depraved is not totally depraved. Being totally depraved is not being incapable of reading (or hearing) the word of God and responding positively to it. That is not the same as being depraved.

We are all born in need of being reconciled to God.

No all who have sinned are in need of being reconciled to God.

Being alienated from Him is a result of being cast away from Him out of the Garden.

You weren't cast out of the Garden. You were never in the Garden to begin with.

Sin and the holiness of God are incompatible.

Absolutely

It became a part of man's very nature to sin---rebel against God.

But man's very nature to sin---rebel against God is not sin. That does not separate us from God. Obviously, it was in Adam's nature to rebel, otherwise why did he rebel?

What we did not know before Adam at of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil became a part of our world. What we did not experience before, we now experience. All sorts of evil, rage, jealousy, coveting, dissatisfaction, rebellion against parents etc. Even though that is not all we experience, we do experience it. It shows up in Cain---sin crouching at the door of our heart.

If that is the case, then why didn't it show up in Able? Why wasn't sin crouching at the door of his heart? Because God regenerated Able? Show me that one in scripture.

It is not our spirit that is the issue in that. It is our heart. And all those evil thoughts and feelings and attitudes as well as the actions they give birth to are sinful.

It is not the heart that is dead in trespasses and sins. If that were the case, that one wouldn't be walking around; at best he would be returning to the dust from which he came. The body sins, the spirit dies.

You are conflating two distinct things and come up with a straw man argument. RT and non-reformed doctrinally do not say we are being judged for Adam's sin, or anyone's sin but our own. That is not what in Adam all sin means. EZ is dealing with judgment. TD is dealing with the condition of all humanity in relation to the holiness of God, because of what Adam did and what resulted from that.

We are dealing with our condition resulting from our having sinned. You were not in trouble for what Adam did; you were in trouble for what you did. Again, why would you ever think God would hold you responsible for anything Adam did? God doesn't even hold you responsible for what Satan did and does and Satan has a lot more influence on you than Adam.

I will come back later to reply to your post #180.

 

[Arial]

It is really pretty simple. If one does not have the ability to choose to either obey or disobey God's laws and commands, then there is no such thing as sin (1 John 3:4). The ability to choose to either obey or disobey God is the very definition of theological free will. There is certainly nothing oxymoronic about that ability. It is fundamental to the biblical doctrine of sin and the need for redemption.

It is really pretty simple. Having the ability to choose does not mean the will is free. And it most certainly doesn't mean that we are not mandated by God to always obey Him, even if we don't believe He exists. That is why disobedience is sin. There is no such thing as theological free will. Ability is not the same thing as will. Ability is the capacity to make choices. The will always follows those choices, puts them into action, and our choices are based on motivators.

What is obedience but choosing to do as God has mandated. Obedience, by definition, is a choice.

What about perfect obedience? You did not address that. The mandate of God is perfect obedience. And what do you consider obedience to God to be?

It is a terribly sad thing to think that anyone who disagrees theologically with you does so only without even studying it and working it out through the scriptures without the already held presuppositions. To think that only the other guy has already held presuppositions is more than a little arrogant.

To accuse me of doing the above calls for you to know the operation of my mind. To know what I think when I have given you no evidence of thinking any such thing. I know you have not studied Reformed theology and compared it to what Scripture says without presuppositions because of what you say it teaches. I never said only the other guy has presuppositions---in fact we all do---I said try to read the Bible without them. From a neutral position iow.

Adam could not do that of his own abilities. So if that was really what happened, then it had to be God which put that into the creation originally.

Adam did do that because of the type of being he was created to be. One made in the image and likeness of God. That entails a being who reasons, has a mind, makes choices, speaks, moves about etc. He was also created mortal (able to die) but with access to the Tree of Life. And he was created able to become corrupt, but not already corrupt. And he was created as the first man, and there were no other men created in the Garden. He was given the command to tend to and care for the creation under God's rule. A type of King, vassel king, covenant relationship. He was given the command to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Well, that did not begin to occur in the Garden, but outside of it, and everyone coming from Adam--- --the first man---but like Adam. They are only recreated, re-born, by the person and work of Christ.

Why God did things the way He did, He does not stoop down to tell us, but it was all in place before creation as a complete destruction of corruption, corrupted, mortal, evil, the serpent, sin, and death. We know that because His word gives us the beginning and the end. But it was not God who sinned. It was Adam.

 

[Arial]

Only punishing three of your four kids for disobeying you does not make you a gracious father.

You keep using analogies that equate God with man. It brings Him down and lifts man up. It is the product of man centered religion. It is obvious that God does not save all. It is just as "ungracious" to leave the success of Christ's death to save in the hands of sinners. Even more so, as that would make the person and work of Jesus---His suffering, His death----largely a failure. Wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many are they that go in. Narrow is the gate that leads to life and few find it. And it is even more ungracious for Him to stand back as though He had no power and no love, wringing His hands in frustration that the unwise were so unwise while the multitudes stand before Him in judgement. Then glorying at the wisdom of the wise. Loving the wisest who were wise enough to choose to believe.

God is only covenant Father to those He adopts through Christ. And last I checked, He does not need to ask our permission to do anything.

I wonder if you have any idea what the goal and purpose of God is in His creation. On second thought, I am sure you do not.

I have told you what it is and showed you from a Scripture at the beginning of the Book and one from the end of the Book. And you have not told me. So try a third thought.

The end result has nothing to do with creation. Nothing about creation has any effect upon the final outcome.

Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend the meaning of what I say that you must distort it so? And if you can't comprehend what I say, why can you not comprehend the Scriptures in Rom 8 that I quoted as evidence? I never said creation had any effect upon the final outcome. I said Jesus is restoring the creation. He does this by destroying every thing that became a blight to it. Look around. Can you not see that the entire creation is suffering. Everything's dies, everything gets sick, people suffer, animals are mistreated, much of earth is paved so it cannot receive the rain. Forests are decimated. It is all groaning, Paul says, awaiting the fullness of our redemption. And that fullness is our certain hope.

 

[Ladodgers6]

It suggests no such thing. It does suggest that truth is faith based.

Truth is not faith based. Truth is facts based on God's Word (Scripture). Who Jesus claimed to be, that he was crucified, buried and resurrected. 1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.

2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
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That becomes the result of God's not providing absolute proof of even His existence which would by and large eliminate faith as any basis for anyone honoring, following and obeying Him.

Huh??? Are you a Progressive Christian? We don't take blind leap of faith, hoping it is truth, it's based on facts of God's Word. Did Jesus really exist? This question has been confirmed not only by Christians, Catholics, but also from the secular society; scientists, archaeology, historian scholars, antiquarian professors, palaeographers. Have found the Bible to be reliable, credible and the Word of God.

But faith is key. God could just as easily have mandated all allegiance to him had that been His objective. Unfortunately, mandated allegiance is what the Reformed Theology presents as the gospel. And even worse, that theology presents mandated allegiance for only a preselected few with the rest preselected for eternal condemnation. All of that having nothing whatsoever to do with the personages of those involved and not only that but also having absolutely nothing to do with even the creation of this universe.

This is your conjecture and you are entitled to have a opinion, through it is not biblical truth.

 

[JIM]

Truth is not faith based. Truth is facts based on God's Word (Scripture). Who Jesus claimed to be, that he was crucified, buried and resurrected. 1 Cor. 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.

2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
​

Huh??? Are you a Progressive Christian? We don't take blind leap of faith, hoping it is truth, it's based on facts of God's Word. Did Jesus really exist? This question has been confirmed not only by Christians, Catholics, but also from the secular society; scientists, archaeology, historian scholars, antiquarian professors, palaeographers. Have found the Bible to be reliable, credible and the Word of God.

God has not provided even fact concerning His existence. Faith is the key. We must believe in God. He could easily prove His existence and everything that He has given in the Bible. But He doesn't do that. The truth of God and all that we know about God is based upon faith.

Yes, the existence of Jesus is fact from History. But none of that is proof that He was the Son of God. Again, it is by faith that we know that.

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus came into the world to show and tell mankind that God's truth is reality. Consider these statements where Jesus bears witness to God's truth -- reality. "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6).


The truth about God comes from his witness His Living Holy Spirit, when we are Born Of The Spirit by divine revelation, God reveals himself to our spirit, he testifies / witnesses with our spirit, by the Holy Spirit ,he brings our spirit Alive in Christ,

The penned word backs up what the Holy Spirit testifies/ witnesses to our heart/ spirit....the Bible is not the Living Holy Spirit.

We must be Born Of God’s “ LIVING “ seed, then the Spirit will then start to lead us through the penned word, then bring it to our understanding in our “spirit “...we are brought to understand the penned word by divine revelation.

Faith is a gift from God given to each a manifestation of the Spirit....because it was God given it will grow, because His seed was delivered to our heart/ spirit by divine revelation.

We have become Born Again in our spirit, by Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit.

We know Jesus exists because of His witness who witnesses that truth to our spirit all day every day.

A Living witness the Holy Spirit...mind Blowing!

We are adopted into God’s Kingdom, by His Spirit, ....there are no directions to becoming Born Again.

That purely happens by divine revelation...just as his word says.

 

[JIM]

You keep using analogies that equate God with man. It brings Him down and lifts man up.

It is God who by example teaches what is right and what is wrong. My analogy was to show you that you are not more just than God.
The way you know right from wrong in treatment of your kids is from God. It is not equating God with man; rather, it is raising man up to be more like God. ' since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy" (1 Pet 1:16), You would not punish one of your kids for what another one of them did. And neither would God

God is only covenant Father to those He adopts through Christ. And last I checked, He does not need to ask our permission to do anything.

Of course not. But He has told us who are those He adopts. And He does not lie. He has given us the conditions for being adopted.

I have told you what it is and showed you from a Scripture at the beginning of the Book and one from the end of the Book. And you have not told me. So try a third thought.

Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend the meaning of what I say that you must distort it so? And if you can't comprehend what I say, why can you not comprehend the Scriptures in Rom 8 that I quoted as evidence? I never said creation had any effect upon the final outcome. I said Jesus is restoring the creation. He does this by destroying every thing that became a blight to it. Look around. Can you not see that the entire creation is suffering. Everything's dies, everything gets sick, people suffer, animals are mistreated, much of earth is paved so it cannot receive the rain. Forests are decimated. It is all groaning, Paul says, awaiting the fullness of our redemption. And that fullness is our certain hope.

I comprehend full well the Scriptures in Romans 8. The all creation there is all humanity. Only humanity can do what is presented there. The brute creation cannot "wait with eager longing" for anything. Not even the non-human animals are capable of doing that. That anyone thinks that the universe changed in any way when Adam sinned is sheer foolishness.

And when the end comes, this universe is not going to be "cured" or "perfected"; rather it is going to be destroyed. It will no longer exist: (2 Pet 3:10). "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed".

 

[JIM]

Jesus came into the world to show and tell mankind that God's truth is reality. Consider these statements where Jesus bears witness to God's truth -- reality. "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6).

He did indeed. We believe what He said and because of that we believe in Him. That is faith.

 

[Ritajanice]

He did indeed. We believe what He said and because of that we believe in Him. That is faith.

Faith is a gift from God....human faith is dead...your spirit must be brought Alive by the Holy Spirit,for faith to grow.faith is a manifestation of the Spirit, just as his word says.

Reading the Bible and believing what you read, you must be Born Again to understand the penned word, even then ,only the Spirit can bring it to our understanding in our spirit.

I could not believe in Jesus, without His Living Holy Spirit “ testifying/ witnessing that truth to my heart / spirit all day every day..

You cannot believe in Jesus in your spirit, without being Born Of God’s seed...our spirit must be Born Again by divine revelation..just as his word says.

No one can draw themselves to Jesus without the Fathers approval ,we are to depraved to know that Jesus exists in our heart/ spirit...without the Spirit bringing us to that divine revelation.

You are free to believe whatever you like.

 

[JIM]

Faith is a gift from God....human faith is dead...your spirit must be brought Alive by the Holy Spirit,for faith to grow.faith is a manifestation of the Spirit, just as his word says.

Reading the Bible and believing what you read, you must be Born Again to understand the penned word, even then ,only the Spirit can bring it to our understanding in our spirit.

I could not believe in Jesus, without His Living Holy Spirit “ testifying/ witnessing that truth to my heart / spirit all day every day..

You cannot believe in Jesus in your spirit, without being Born Of God’s seed...our spirit must be Born Again by divine revelation..just as his word says.

No one can draw themselves to Jesus without the Fathers approval ,we are to depraved to know that Jesus exists in our heart/ spirit...without the Spirit bringing us to that divine revelation.

Mostly nonsense.

You are free to believe whatever you like.

And you are free to believe whatever you like.

 

[Ritajanice]

Mostly nonsense.

None of what the word of God says is “ nonsense “....I was Born Again by divine revelation, just as the written word says..a Living spirit birth, you can’t read that into being...it can only come by divine revelation.

And you are free to believe whatever you like.

I can only believe because of being Born Of The Spirit, my spirit is Born Again.

 

[JIM]

None of what the word of God says is “ nonsense “....

I can only believe because of being Born Of The Spirit, my spirit is Born Again.

One who believes will be born again. Only those who believe will be born of the Spirit.

It is through believing in Jesus that one is saved by grace (Eph 2:8).

 

[Ritajanice]

One who believes will be born again.

If one believes from the heart/ spirit, then they must have already been Born Of God’s Living seed...you can believe in Jesus initially, even then it is God who brings us to believe initially , to believe in Jesus in your heart/ spirit, then you must be Born Again by the Spirit who gifts us the faith to believe in our heart/ spirit...that can only come by divine revelation.

Only those who believe will be born of the Spirit.

We must believe initially in Jesus, only then if God decides , he will gift us the faith delivered to our heart/ spirit, brings our spirit from death to life in his Son, which is the “ Living “ spirit birth , that only Gods Living witness can bring our spirit Alive....by divine revelation....in other words, Gods Spirit testifies that truth to our spirit / heart, it’s Gods Living truth, it’s not something that you can read into being I’m afraid.

Reading the word and believing it can only come by divine revelation.

 

[Ritajanice]

Only those who believe will be born of the Spirit.

We are Born Of The Spirit.

Born Again of incorruptible/ imperishable seed....that is by Gods Living seed, His Living Holy Spirit.

We play no part in coming to believe in Jesus, that was already decided for us by God, before the foundation of the world, God is Spirit, a Living Spirit, he is not the Bible.you need to be Born Of The Spirit to believe in your spirit that God is who he says he is, which can only come by divine revelation...

It’s our spirit that believes in God, if we have been chosen by him to believe, all according to his purpose and plan/ his will.

 

[Arial]

You would not punish one of your kids for what another one of them did. And neither would God

Did someone say He did?

Of course not. But He has told us who are those He adopts. And He does not lie. He has given us the conditions for being adopted.

There are no conditions to being adopted that man must or even can provide.

I comprehend full well the Scriptures in Romans 8. The all creation there is all humanity. Only humanity can do what is presented there. The brute creation cannot "wait with eager longing" for anything. Not even the non-human animals are capable of doing that. That anyone thinks that the universe changed in any way when Adam sinned is sheer foolishness.

Look at these two sentences and then insist that it is not speaking of creation. 19. For creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God, 21. that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God---23. And not only the creation but we ourselves---''

You did not read it carefully enough. Anyone who does not believe that the universe changed when Adam sinned does not believe the Bible. It says God subjected it to futility when Adam sinned. It says God cursed the ground when Adam sinned.

And when the end comes, this universe is not going to be "cured" or "perfected"; rather it is going to be destroyed. It will no longer exist: (2 Pet 3:10). "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed".

Did you also miss the part about the new heaven and the NEW EARTH that comes down from heaven in Rev?

God created earth as our home. So what exactly is your hope, and what do you think the epistles are speaking of as our hope?

 

[JIM]

We are Born Of The Spirit.

Born Again of incorruptible/ imperishable seed....that is by Gods Living seed, His Living Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not, so far as I see, never spoken of as God's seed. But perhaps I missed it.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Holy Spirit is not, so far as I see, never spoken of as God's seed. But perhaps I missed it.

Who is Gods seed that remains in us?
Whose seed are you Born Again of, if not the Holy Spirit, who is the Living seed, ...........Born Of The Spirit, we are new babies when we first became Born Again in our spirit, isn’t the Holy Spirit the seed of spiritual life?

Doesn’t the seed/ Spirit nurture and grow us in Christ, don’t we grow in spirit?

Just as a seed planted in the ground will grow and bring forth its fruit, so I, the Holy Spirit am the Seed planted in your heart who will bring forth the fruit of righteousness and godliness.


Short commentary.

Listen to the words of Peter, John, and James, in their epistles.

But first, before discussion of the seed, let’s look at the fundamentals for growth in the first place. We know we need these three ingredients: 1). Nutritious soil. 2). Water. 3). Light.

Jesus is the light of the world. Jesus gives living water. Now the wild card is the soil, which happens to be YOUR HEART.

Peter ​

1 Peter 1:23-24 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

John​

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 4:4 Greater is He who is in you…

James ​

1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

So what does this mean? Jesus told us exactly what was going to happen.

John 16:14 He (The Holy Spirit) will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

Luke 8:11​

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King James Version​

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11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

 

[JIM]

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The seed is the word of God. The Bible is the word of God. That is the only word of God that anyone has access to.

 

[Ritajanice]

The seed is the word of God. The Bible is the word of God. That is the only word of God that anyone has access to.

The Bible is not the Living word of God...it was written by men under the “ influence “ of the Spirit of God...

I’ve just posted scripture saying that the seed of God is the Living Holy Spirit....

Jesus was Born Of God’s seed?

John writes about God's seed, Jesus, “Everyone who is truly God's child will refuse to keep on sinning because God's seed remains within him, and he is unable to continue sinning because he has been fathered by God Himself” (1 John 3: 9 TPT). God's seed, Jesus, brings about new birth.

Gods word is Alive and Active, His Living Holy Spirit is everywhere, waiting and watching to bring someone’s spirit Alive in Christ, by divine revelation....the Holy Spirit does the will of the Father on earth.

The Holy Spirit is a Living Spirit, just as Gods penned word says, we are Born Of The Spirit.....that is a Living spirit birth...the Bible “ does not” make your spirit Born Of God’s seed.....that can only happen by a Living divine revelation....

 

[JIM]

The Bible is not the Living word of God...it was written by men under the “ influence “ of the Spirit of God...

There are a lot of people a whole lot smarter than me would tell you that the Bible is the living word of God.