Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

[ElectedbyHim]

Can one say thast the unregenerate are the children of satan, per John 8:44?

 

[David Lamb]

Did the devil sin?

If we define sine as disobeying God, then yes, he did. But the bible, as far as I know, does not say that the devil was a slave to sin. We are tempted to sin by the devil, being "taken captive" by him:

“and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to [do] his will.” (2Ti 2:26 NKJV)

We don't read that the devil was tempted by anyone else to sin. Whose slave do you think he was?

 

[Josheb]

Why the obsession with the devil ? What does scripture say ?

I'm not obsessed and do not appreciate the off topic unkind attribution. The questions is asked because it goes directly to the core of the dispute.

Not concerned about the devil being a slave.........

You should be concerned with the devil being a slave to sin because it is one of the contexts in which all that is sad about him occurs. To deny his enslavement is to deny scripture. To avoid answering the question is to avoid the truth of scripture. To delay answering such a simple question when asked is to obstruct the progress of the discussion. To inject a supposed obsession onto a poster is trolling.

Did the devil sin?

 

[Josheb]

Did he? When?

Lees

Yes, he did sin.

He has been a murderer from the beginning and there is no truth in him (Jn. 8:44). He is not righteous, and all unrighteousness is sin (1 Jn. 5:17). He bore false witness in Eden when he told Eve she wouldn't die and bearing false witness is a sin (Ex. 20:16) and a lying tongue is particularly detestable to God (Pr. 6:17). He causes betrayal and lying in followers of Jesus (see Jn. 13:2 and Acts 5:3) and hinders their work (1 Thes. 2:18). He dishonestly disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14).

1 John 3:8a
The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

Did the devil sin? Yes! When? From the beginning! Therefore, the answer to the question asked is an unequivocal yes, the devil did sin.




Now, without further delay, can I get an acknowledgment of that fact before we proceed? Are you paying attention @brightfame52?
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[Josheb]

If we define sine as disobeying God, then yes, he did.

The Bible defines sin several ways and (breaking the Law, all unrighteousness, any not done in faith, etc.) and the devil has done them all.

But the bible, as far as I know, does not say that the devil was a slave to sin.

Which is why I am attempting this conversation. It appears there are several posters here who haven't yet put together all that scripture states about the devil and sin and the result is a mistaken demonology. You believe the Bible does not say the devil is a slave to sin, so let me ask you this two-part question:

What is the result of sin and what is its wage?

How does scripture answer that question.

We are....

We're not discussing humans. We're discussing hamartiology as it applies to the devil and only the devil.

We don't read that the devil was tempted by anyone else to sin. Whose slave do you think he was?

Irrelevant. If he sinned, then he sinned without the influence of another agent. Post #304 proves he sinned, is a sinner, and has been a sinner from the beginning.

So what?


Well..... let's find out the answer to the "So what?" together so that there will not be any dispute on this matter among any of us.


What is the result of sin and what is its wage?


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[brightfame52]

I'm not obsessed and do not appreciate the off topic unkind attribution. The questions is asked because it goes directly to the core of the dispute.

You should be concerned with the devil being a slave to sin because it is one of the contexts in which all that is sad about him occurs. To deny his enslavement is to deny scripture. To avoid answering the question is to avoid the truth of scripture. To delay answering such a simple question when asked is to obstruct the progress of the discussion. To inject a supposed obsession onto a poster is trolling.

Did the devil sin?

You not talking about anything, diversion

 

[Josheb]

You not talking about anything, diversion

I am talking about very real and op-relevant mistakes made in Post #292.

Mans total depravity is due to the fact, being born a fallen sinner, he is a slave to the devil, he has a nature that is under the control of the devil, hence its a nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2;Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Those words "according to" denote power, in agreement with the greek word kata:

according to anything as a standard, agreeably to: or conformity

Also we see the nature is controlled by " the spirit working in them" =(a spirit) that comes from the devil), Ephesians 2:2

Humans are not slaves to the devil. Humans are slaves to sin (apart from Christ). So too is the devil. The devil is a slave of sin. He is dead and enslaved in his trespasses, and the wages of sin is death. The op-relevant difference between his enslavement in/to/by sin and the human enslavement in/to/by sin is that we humans are privileged enough to have salvation from sin and wrath provided for us. The devil has no such option. Neither does Ephesians 2:2-3 actually state the nature of disobedience has anything to do with the control of the devil. That verse was misused. The verse says nothing about the "nature" of disobedience. What is says is the spirit, the spirit of "the prince of the air," is at work in the children of disobedience. In other words, they are already the children of disobedience, not that the spirit caused/causes their disobedience.

If the devil is enslaved to sin, by his own sins (and Post #304 proves he is a sinner), then that has meaning for Paul's attribution "the prince of the air." Many have a mistaken view of that phrase because they do not understand the devil is a slave. Not only is he a slave of/to/in sin, but he is also a finite created creature who's been a murderous liar from the beginning, in whom there is no light or truth. The devil is, himself, depraved. Worse than any human sinner (although it won't make any difference in the end). If the devil is a sinner then he, too, is subject to total depravity but worse because no salvation from sin is ever offered him. He's nothing more than animated corpse plodding delusionally through what he wrongly imagines is life toward his inevitable demise. Just like any unregenerate human sinner.


The devil is not actually a prince of anything.


Not only is he enslaved in/to/by sin, dead in his trespasses and destined for destruction, but he is subject to the rule of Christ. Jesus has the rule above all other rules. He and he alone is King of all other kings, Lord over all other lords, and all power and authority has been given to him. And he has given it to us. What kind of "prince" flees when resisted (Jms. 4:7)? What kind of prince has ALL his fiery arrows extinguished (Eph. 6:16)? What kind of prince eats carrion (1 Pet. 5:8)?

The devil is not prince of anything. The devil is a minion, and he has absolutely no power except that which his Creator gives hm and even then, that power serves his Creator's purpose, not his own. The comments about the devil in Post 292 are incorrect.

Be advised there is no Gospel obedience in this nature, impossible ! Depravity

That part is correct.



I am talking about something, and it is not digressive. The spirit of the devil is not at work in those in Christ. It is Post #292 that is digressive because this discussion about the identity of those in Christ, not the identity of the children of disobedience in whom the spirit of the prince of air is at work (or at least was at work when Paul wrote the epistle). Who we are in Christ are people whose destiny is decided and assured, over which the devil has no power. We were depraved by sin, not the devil.

 

[Arial]

Let's get back on topic folks. Enough about whether or not the devil sinned and whether or not he is a slave to sin.

 

[Josheb]

Let's get back on topic folks. Enough about whether or not the devil sinned and whether or not he is a slave to sin.

Amen.

However, the op-relevant point is that the devil is not the cause of Total Depravity and he is of no consequence or mention when explaining TD without reference to the human will. Something often neglected when discussing TD is...

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions."[/i] (Article 6.4 of the WCF)​

"Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal." (Article 6.6 of the WCF)​

God did not ask anyone if they wanted any of that. The human will is irrelevant.





Btw, since first reading this op back in August, I have had several occasions to use the Theocentric understanding with both synergists and fellow monergists alike.
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[Arial]

Amen.

However, the op-relevant point is that the devil is not the cause of Total Depravity and he is of no consequence or mention when explaining TD without reference to the human will. Something often neglected when discussing TD is...

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions."[/i] (Article 6.4 of the WCF)​

"Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal." (Article 6.6 of the WCF)​

God did not ask anyone if they wanted any of that. The human will is irrelevant.





Btw, since first reading this op back in August, I have had several occasions to use the Theocentric understanding with both synergists and fellow monergists alike.
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Asking that a thread return to the topic does not mean continuing to post off topic in order to justify the off topic posts. There should be no more of it.