The Rapture

[Hodgie]

An interesting side note about Lazarus. Some people think that he was actually the author of the book of John. They are able to make a pretty good case for it too. (I personally don't care if it was Lazarus that wrote the book of John, or if it was John. Either way is OK to me.)
If it was Lazarus, maybe he did not see death.
John 21:20-23 says, " Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them—the one who also had leaned back on His chest at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who is betraying You?” So, Peter, upon seeing him, said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore, this account went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?”

If you are interested, in the Lazurus writing the book of John, then here is a sermon that covers most of it. It does make for a very interesting study.

 

[armylngst]

And yet John called it the city where the Lord was crucified and thus Babylon.

Could you give a reference for this?

 

[EarlyActs]

Could you give a reference for this?

Sorry, it's Sodom and Egypt. Real winners by comparison, lol.

Their corpses will lie in the street of the great city that is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also crucified.

 

[armylngst]

Sorry, it's Sodom and Egypt. Real winners by comparison, lol.

Their corpses will lie in the street of the great city that is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also crucified.

Reference?

 

[EarlyActs]

Reference?

sorry I assumed you had an online Bible tabbed. 11:8.

 

[armylngst]

sorry I assumed you had an online Bible tabbed. 11:8.

Sorry. I meant to write back and say that I had found it.

 

[ChristB4us]

Perhaps you could demonstrate the error in the following authoritative NT apostolic teaching of John, Paul and Matthew, as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8):

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).

@Hodgie & @EarlyActs & @armylngst & @GeneZ & @Foghorn & @Wordsmith

But which last day is it when there is an order to this resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

Revelation 19:1-10 has the Marriage Supper held in Heaven. That means teh doors are shut for how and why the devil is kicked out of Heaven that accuses the brethren daily no more for why the devil knows he has little time left. Then the heaven open and He comes back with the pre great tribulation raptured saints to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem in Revelation 19:11-21. Zechariah 14:1-5 has Him touching down on the Mount of Olives and destroying that army on earth as Revelation 19:11-21 confirms. So Jesus is on earth when Satan is in the pit for a thousand years per Revelation 20:1-6 for when that resurrection takes place as happening "first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great white Throne Judgment.

That means those saints resurrected after the great tribulation are NOT meeting Jesus in the air.

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture is (occurs at the time of) the judgment:

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

If one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not locate the rapture with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time, that interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, thereby making it in error, for Scripture does not contradict itself.

The separation of the sheep and the goats has to be done at the Great White Throne Judgment since the judgment is the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

That in context; has nothing to do with the pre great tribulation rapture event.

 

[Eleanor]

@Hodgie & @EarlyActs & @armylngst & @GeneZ & @Foghorn & @Wordsmith

But which last day is it when there is an order to this resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

There is only one last day, or it isn't' the last day.

And the order regarding resurection is
1) Christ, the firstfruits of resurrection (2,000 years ago),
2) second coming, resurrection of all mankind (at the last day),
3) end of time.

Revelation 19:1-10 has the Marriage Supper held in Heaven. That means teh doors are shut for how and why the devil is kicked out of Heaven that accuses the brethren daily no more for why the devil knows he has little time left. Then the heaven open and He comes back with the pre great tribulation raptured saints to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem in Revelation 19:11-21. Zechariah 14:1-5 has Him touching down on the Mount of Olives and destroying that army on earth as Revelation 19:11-21 confirms. So Jesus is on earth when Satan is in the pit for a thousand years per Revelation 20:1-6 for when that resurrection takes place as happening "first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great white Throne Judgment.
That means those saints resurrected after the great tribulation are NOT meeting Jesus in the air.
The separation of the sheep and the goats has to be done at the Great White Throne Judgment since the judgment is the lake of fire.

Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not trump the NT Scriptures presented in posts #640 and #715.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
That in context; has nothing to do with the pre great tribulation rapture event.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is only one last day, or it isn't' the last day.

Then what do you call the Great White Throne Judgment when the rest of the dead are resurrected later on after that "resurrection" after the great tribulation? So you have to take the whole of scripture to understand the message being given.

And the order regarding resurection is
1) Christ, the firstfruits of resurrection (2,000 years ago),

Then there is no order as you will note that firstfruits is plural and thereby referring to other firstfruits along with Christ; those that be Christ abiding in Him as His disciples that are also willing to go when the Bridegroom comes and then afterwards those that were not ready & get left behind, & new believers after the rapture, will be they that be Christ's at His coming.

2) second coming, resurrection of all mankind (at the last day),
3) end of time.

Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not trump the NT Scriptures presented in posts #640 and #715.

I am not referring to Numbers 12:8 at all as I am unaware of its message, however, since the "first resurrection" was to occur first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on, then you are misapplying what Jesus meant by that last day when ignoring His other words

But only Jesus can show that to you as it is, you are overlooking the generations that will be following the great tribulation in that 1000 year reign and how that is to take place before Satan is released from the pit after a thousand years for a small season to stage one last rebellion before Christ ends him by putting him in the lake of fire by which time the Great White Throne Judgment will commence.

Revelation 20th Chapter <--- Read that for Biblical confirmation.

 

[Eleanor]

Then what do you call the Great White Throne Judgment when the rest of the dead are resurrected later on after that "resurrection" after the great tribulation? So you have to take the whole of scripture to understand the message being given.

I take my doctrine from authoritative NT apostolic teaching, not from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), which interpretation is contrary to that apostolic teaching.

Then there is no order as you will note that firstfruits is plural and thereby referring to other firstfruits along with Christ; those that be Christ abiding in Him as His disciples that are also willing to go when the Bridegroom comes and then afterwards those that were not ready & get left behind, & new believers after the rapture, will be they that be Christ's at His coming.

I am not referring to Numbers 12:8 at all

It's not about you referring to it, it's about what it declares regarding the nature of the source of your doctrine; i.e., that it is riddle and not spoken clearly, which riddles you interpret contrary to authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

as I am unaware of its message, however, since the "first resurrection" was to occur first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on, then you are misapplying what Jesus meant by that last day when ignoring His other words

But only Jesus can show that to you as it is, you are overlooking the generations that will be following the great tribulation in that 1000 year reign and how that is to take place before Satan is released from the pit after a thousand years for a small season to stage one last rebellion before Christ ends him by putting him in the lake of fire by which time the Great White Throne Judgment will commence.

 

[ChristB4us]

I take my doctrine from authoritative NT apostolic teaching, not from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), which interpretation is contrary to that apostolic teaching.

It's not about you referring to it, it's about what it declares regarding the nature of the source of your doctrine; i.e., that it is riddle and not spoken clearly, which riddles you interpret contrary to authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

The only problem here is you are taking a verse and indeed the phrase "last day" in that verse of John 6:39 at the expense of other scriptures for which you cannot align with your belief in how you are applying last day to mean.

That is not rightly dividing the word of truth and therefore you are in need to ask Jesus Christ for wisdom.

So ask Him for wisdom to see the truth in His words because it sure does not hurt to ask Him to make sure you are not in error as overlooking the truth in His words in other scripture that shows you are not rightly dividing the word of truth about that "last day" in John 6:39.

Proof? Look at John 6:37 then.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

We have Him saying any disciple that stops abiding in him will be cut off per verse 6 of John 15:1-8.

Luke 12:40-49 testify to saved believers being cut off and ;left behind with unbelievers to face that fire coming on the earth per verse 49. AND in verses 46-48 is about those servants left behind that are getting stripes per the knowledge they had for not being ready & lesser stripes for the knowledge that they did not have for not being ready, but stripes they will get.

Hebrews 12:1-10 talks about running that race and those who look to Jesus Christ daily in helping them lay aside every weight & sin are running that race whereas those that do not, are not even resisting sin, they are going to get a scourging; hence stripes from the Father hence tying in with that pre great tribulation rapture event when those left behind will get those stripes so that hey may be partakers of His holiness.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now consider teaching any one to break any commandment while you do the same; ridiculous, right? And yet you are considered the least in the kingdom of heaven. How can that be?

Jesus is talking about those who commit iniquity that gets left behind, with stripes, will become vessels unto dishonor in His House as vessels of wood & earth but in His House. That is why Paul is calling every believer that has His seal and that foundation laid by Jesus Christ to depart from iniquity, even former believers are still called to go to Jesus for help to see the truth to depart from iniquity, and so that is why YOU CANNOT apply that as being addressing the world when Paul is warning believers to be ready by departing from iniquity pr else be left behind to get stripes because like it or not, those resurrected after the great tribulation is going to have those stripes to remind them severely not to commit those sins again as they will not be teaching others to break any of His commandments then but this explains how they winded up as the least in the kingdom of heaven.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[Eleanor]

The only problem here is you are taking a verse and indeed the phrase "last day" in that verse of John 6:39 at the expense of other scriptures for which you cannot align with your belief in how you are applying last day to mean.

I don't use prophetic riddles to understand the NT.

Present your case of the "last day" from NT apostolic teaching.

 

[ChristB4us]

I don't use prophetic riddles to understand the NT.

Present your case of the "last day" from NT apostolic teaching

So if your mind is made up, then ask Jesus for wisdom because I cannot give that to you. Only He can.

 

[Eleanor]

So if your mind is made up, then ask Jesus for wisdom because I cannot give that to you. Only He can.

If my mind is made up based on the wisdom he has given me
to take doctrine from apostolic teaching rather than prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8),
as well as their being subject to more than one interpretation--my interpretation being in agreement with apostolic teaching,
I have the wisdom I asked for, and it agrees with the apostles, which yours does not.

 

[ChristB4us]

If my mind is made up based on the wisdom he has given me
to take doctrine from apostolic teaching rather than prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8),
as well as their being subject to more than one interpretation--my interpretation being in agreement with apostolic teaching,
I have the wisdom I asked for, and it agrees with the apostles, which yours does not.

Then you should not be afraid to ask Him to confirm that truth in case you are wrong, right?

 

[armylngst]

There is only one last day, or it isn't' the last day.

And the order regarding resurection is
1) Christ, the firstfruits of resurrection (2,000 years ago),
2) second coming, resurrection of all mankind (at the last day),
3) end of time.

Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not trump the NT Scriptures presented in posts #640 and #715.

So what about this statement that "This is the first resurrection" in Revelation? That would seem to dictate that there is another resurrection to come. Numbers are weird like that.

"4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of [b]their witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and who also had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

The first resurrection.

"11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sits upon it, from whose [f]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 Then I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [g]books were opened; and another [h]book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [i]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [j]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

The resurrection to judgment. Those who died at the very end need to be judged. All those who did not take part in the first resurrection take part in the second/last resurrection. A resurrection to judgment.

 

[Eleanor]

So what about this statement that "This is the first resurrection" in Revelation? That would seem to dictate that there is another resurrection to come. Numbers are weird like that.

Revelation is prophetic riddle, not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being that interpretation must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

I interpret that differently, that 1,000 years is figurative of the church age, and the first resurrection is from spiritual death to eternal life in the new birth. All those who do not take part in the first resurrection (new birth) rise to eternal judgment.
Likewise, the apostles teach that the church (of both OT and NT saints, Ro 11:16-23) is
the last times and the end of the ages (1 Pe 1:20, Heb 1:2, 9:26),
the fulfillment of the ages (1 Co 10:11) and
God's new creation (2 Co 5:17, Gal 6:15) for eternity.

God has no other plan on earth than his church, the body of Christ (Eph 5:30-32) and bride of the Lamb (Rev 21:9-14), the New Jerusalem.
And God has revealed no other plan for his church than his new creation, exceeding his original creation.

 

[Eleanor]

Then you should not be afraid to ask Him to confirm that truth in case you are wrong, right?

He has for many years.

 

[ChristB4us]

He has for many years.

Not if you are allowing the church and men to teach you rather than proving everything the church and men taught you by His words in the KJV.

I believe "apostolic teachings" is how you learned of it by church or men and using it to block applying His words for how it opposes what you had learned by your church and other men.

You need to prove their teachings by Him; and not take it at face value.

 

[Josheb]

Why not?

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:8 does not use the word "near."

2 Peter 3:8 simply says a day can be a very long time for God and a thousand years can be a very short time for God. It does not say anything about the word "near." In point of fact, every single time God used the word "near" in His Word He meant near in time or space and never, not once, did He ever use the word "near" to mean anything other than near. Word-search it for yourself. Verify what I posted.