The Rapture

[Hodgie]

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture 1 Th 4:16-17. (See this text for the meaning of the rapture.)

As I said earlier. This is your presumption. I have shown how the rapture could be after the dead in Christ are raised. The first resurrection happens and the after the 1000 years, those that are left alive will be taken up into the clouds.
Your authoritative NT teachings are only your interpretation of verses. Your interpretation is only that. It is not authoritative.
So, please stop using the wording, "authoritative apostolic teaching". It is not conducive to a discussion. It is like saying, "My viewpoint is the correct one because I know it is correct. Everyone else, if they have a different understanding cannot possibly be correct."

 

[Eleanor]

As I said earlier. This is your presumption.

The clear statements of the apostles in post #668 are not presumption.

I have shown how the rapture could be after the dead in Christ are raised.

It matters not what you show.
All that matters is what the apostles state.
Their teaching is the truth of any matter.

first resurrection happens and the after the 1000 years, those that are left alive will be taken up into the clouds.
Your authoritative NT teachings are only your interpretation of verses. Your interpretation is only that. It is not authoritative.
So, please stop using the wording, "authoritative apostolic teaching". It is not conducive to a discussion. It is like saying, "My viewpoint is the correct one because I know it is correct. Everyone else, if they have a different understanding cannot possibly be correct."

 

[Hodgie]

The clear statements of the apostles in post #668 are not presumption.

In post 668 you only posted what you believe is the correct interpretation. So, not authoritative but opinion only. This is why you need to stop saying that your interpretation is the only correct one. It seems very narcissistic if you repeat it time and time again.
I can understand saying it a few times to make your original point but when it becomes your go to reply when you cannot answer something, then there it becomes an issue.

It matters not what you show.
All that matters is what the apostles state.
Their teaching is the truth of any matter.

Correct. And they state that the dead in Christ will rise first. This could easily mean the martyrs are raised first and they then reign for 1000 with Christ. And then the rapture afterwards. After all, in Rev 20:5 it states that no other believer will be raised until after the 1000 years. Only the martyrs.

 

[Eleanor]

In post 668 you only posted what you believe is the correct interpretation.

There is no "interpretation," there is simple statement only.

So, not authoritative but opinion only. This is why you need to stop saying that your interpretation is the only correct one. It seems very narcissistic if you repeat it time and time again.
I can understand saying it a few times to make your original point but when it becomes your go to reply when you cannot answer something, then there it becomes an issue.

Correct. And they state that the dead in Christ will rise first. This could easily mean the martyrs are raised first and they then reign for 1000 with Christ. And then the rapture afterwards. After all, in Rev 20:5 it states that no other believer will be raised until after the 1000 years. Only the martyrs.

Context. . .context. . .context. . .1 Th 4:13:

Jesus said he would return soon, and the early church, including the apostles, thought Jesus would return in their lifetimes.
When some of them died in the meantime, they were grieving (4:13) about those deceased missing the second coming.
Paul is writing to comfort them with the facts of the second coming, that
those still living at Christ's coming would not be taken up before those in their graves (4:15),
that Christ would come down from heaven,
the dead would rise first,
after that, those still living would be caught up together in the clouds with the resurrected (rapture) to meet the Lord in the air.

The problem we are having here seems to be that you know little of Scripture in general, that your knowledge is mostly about eschatology and prophecy, giving you no rule of apostolic teaching by which to measure the accuracy of prophetic interpretation.
And it doesn't help that so much of the church is now focused on eschatology, to the neglect of the doctrine of Christ.
And it is doing great harm to the church.

 

[Hodgie]

Context. . .context. . .context. . .1 Th 4:13:

Jesus said he would return soon, and the early church, including the apostles, thought Jesus would return in their lifetimes.

So, they read the scriptures and they also had first hand interactions with Jesus but within their understanding, the context was still wrong???? That sound very familiar to you. You could be wrong.

I do agree that they were grieving those that had died. At the time, the Christian people were under persecution, and many were being martyred. But the wording does not 100% say that the return of Christ and the resurrection of all believers will be at the same time. Infact, John 6:40 says that it is not. So does John 11:24. These verses state that the believers will only be raised on the last day.

 

[Eleanor]

So, they read the scriptures and they also had first hand interactions with Jesus but within their understanding, the context was still wrong???? That sound very familiar to you. You could be wrong.

I do agree that they were grieving those that had died. At the time, the Christian people were under persecution, and many were being martyred. But the wording does not 100% say that the return of Christ and the resurrection of all believers will be at the same time. Infact, John 6:40 says that it is not. So does John 11:24. These verses state that the believers will only be raised on the last day.

Previously addressed, post #668.

 

[Hodgie]

I did not think you could defend your position.

 

[armylngst]

The text is clear.
The Greek word harpazo is translated rapturo in the Latin and rapture in the English.
1 Th 1:16-17 is the harpazo.
There is absolutely nothing uncertain in that text.

That is Biblical ignorance, due to a besotted submergence of much of the church in prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:8), to the neglect of the clear authoritative apostolic teaching of the doctrine of Christ, and which neglect is doing great harm to the church.

However, I have shown more times than I care to count that this is not all the NT states regarding the time of the rapture.
The NT in the following clearly locates the rapture with the second coming, resurrection and final judgment.
It is incorrect to state there is nothing in the NT to support the meaning and time of the rapture, to wit:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture 1 Th 4:16-17. (See this text for the meaning of the rapture.)
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture is (occurs at the time of) the judgment:

The above authoritative teachings of the apostles John, Paul and Matthew are plain and clear regarding the time of the rapture's occurrence, and their teaching is not in agreement with these personal interpretations of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), and subject to more than one interpretation.

That is why premillennialists lean towards this verse, but apparently you are not aware of the numerous arguments against?

 

[Eleanor]

That is why premillennialists lean towards this verse, but apparently you are not aware of the numerous arguments against?

All I need to be aware of is what the apostles teach. They are the authority for Christianity, not personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being the interpretation must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching.

Arguments contrary to apostolic teaching are without standing, as in some presented here regarding the rapture.

 

[EarlyActs]

I find that the final day of judgement before the NHNE is short, maybe just an hour. All of the above takes place rather fast.

 

[EarlyActs]

I did not think you could defend your position.

Those things all happen on the last day.

 

[Eleanor]

I find that the final day of judgement before the NHNE is short, maybe just an hour. All of the above takes place rather fast.

Works for me.

 

[Hodgie]

All I need to be aware of is what the apostles teach. They are the authority for Christianity, not personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being the interpretation must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching.

I don't agree with Armylngst but your statements leave no room for discussion. You are saying that you have interpreted what the apostles teach correctly and that what you have interpreted cannot be incorrect. Since you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, can you please tell us all what happens in the end times?
This is actually a serious question. I do want to know fully what you believe.

 

[EarlyActs]

I don't agree with Armylngst but your statements leave no room for discussion. You are saying that you have interpreted what the apostles teach correctly and that what you have interpreted cannot be incorrect. Since you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, can you please tell us all what happens in the end times?
This is actually a serious question. I do want to know fully what you believe.

E validated my remark that the last day is very compressed. It all takes place very quick and then there is the NHNE.

I find this in Thess, Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Peter 3. And none of this has Judaic features to it like Rev.

To me that means that the 1st page of the Rev is quite right: it is about things taking place shortly; lots of it refers to the 1st cent. events of the Great Revolt and surrounding things. A huge army did gather at the Euphrates, etc.

But like Mt 24, Mk 13 and 2 Pet 3, there has been a delay in the final day happening. In fact, 2 Pet 3 is written to answer why there would be a delay. Why didn't the final day happen already? A: Grace of God.

 

[armylngst]

All I need to be aware of is what the apostles teach. They are the authority for Christianity, not personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being the interpretation must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching.

Arguments contrary to apostolic teaching are without standing, as in some presented here regarding the rapture.

Yet you are using personal interpretation and shutting out everything else.

 

[EarlyActs]

Yet you are using personal interpretation and shutting out everything else.

I do not find any Judaic detail, or even very much elapsed time, in the ordinary (non-symbolic) language passages on the final day of judgement: Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, 2 Pet 3, Heb 9, Acts 17, the Thess passages.

The instance in Thess about the temple was about the man of evil being in that temple then, that generation, per Dan 8-9.

 

[Eleanor]

I don't agree with Armylngst but your statements leave no room for discussion. You are saying that you have interpreted what the apostles teach correctly and that what you have interpreted cannot be incorrect. Since you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, can you please tell us all what happens in the end times?
This is actually a serious question. I do want to know fully what you believe.

What the apostles plainly state in post #668 is not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of belief.

If you have questions, feel free to present them. But let's not entertain contradictions to their statements.

 

[Eleanor]

duplicate

 

[Hodgie]

What the apostles plainly state in post #668 is not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of belief.

OK. So:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39).

I agree. I can only see one outcome for this statement.

Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture 1 Th 4:16-17. (See this text for the meaning of the rapture.)

I can see 2 outcomes for this statement. We could look at it the way you are. But there is also another way.
The Lord could descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, but the dead in Christ must rise first and do their thing before he will return with the trumpet of God. So, the martyrs rise first and reign for 1000 years(Rev 20:4) and then, after this, Christ descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God on the last day. This second way of looking at 1 Thes 4:16-17 aligns with John 6:39 where he raises everyone on the last day. The day of judgement.

Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).

This can have a second way of looking at these verses too. Verse 39 is saying that no one will know when these end times events will happen.
Then verse 40 it relates back to Matt 24:9-21 where it talks about believers going into tribulation. So do not get caught or you will go to tribulation. So do not be caught in the field. If you are, you will be taken and most likely beheaded. Look at Matt 24:18. It even speaks about the person in the field saying, don't hesitate. Run. Get out of there. So, there will be two men in the field one is left, and one is taken to tribulation because he did not flee.
So, verse 40 is not talking about a rapture, instead it is saying that if you do not flee, you will be taken. Taken to tribulation.
Look at the whole chapter to make sense of it. Don't just take little bits here and there to suit your narrative.

Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

This verse in Matthew is the last day. This is where he gathers all the believers and non-believers and judges them at the Great White throne Judgement. He separates the sheep and the goats at the GWT judgement. This too aligns with John 6:39 and also John 11:24.

In the end, there is more than one view to these verses that makes perfect sense. Since there is more than one view, you cannot say that without any doubt that your view is 100% correct. I believe that you are wording what the apostles have written to suit your own understanding of the end times events. But there is another view and therefore, you cannot claim that your view is the authoritative view.
I do not believe that the verses you have mentioned say beyond a shadow of doubt that the next return of Jesus will be also with the Rapture of all the believers. That is not clearly stated.

 

[Eleanor]

OK. So:

I agree. I can only see one outcome for this statement.

I can see 2 outcomes for this statement. We could look at it the way you are. But there is also another way.
The Lord could descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, but the dead in Christ must rise first and do their thing before he will return with the trumpet of God.

Now I see the problem.
You are adding to the NT text with no NT warrant.
Now when you make that unwarranted insertion, does it agree with the rest of the apostolic statements?

So, the martyrs rise first and reign for 1000 years(Rev 20:4) and then, after this, Christ descends from heaven with a shout,

Does that agree with apostolic teaching?
The apostle teaches that Christ comes down from heaven first and then the martyrs are resurrected (1 Th 4:16).

with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God on the last day. This second way of looking at 1 Thes 4:16-17 aligns with John 6:39 where he raises everyone on the last day. The day of judgement.

This can have a second way of looking at these verses too. Verse 39 is saying that no one will know when these end times events will happen.
Then verse 40 it relates back to Matt 24:9-21 where it talks about believers going into tribulation. So do not get caught or you will go to tribulation. So do not be caught in the field. If you are, you will be taken and most likely beheaded. Look at Matt 24:18. It even speaks about the person in the field saying, don't hesitate. Run. Get out of there. So, there will be two men in the field one is left, and one is taken to tribulation because he did not flee.
So, verse 40 is not talking about a rapture, instead it is saying that if you do not flee, you will be taken. Taken to tribulation.
Look at the whole chapter to make sense of it. Don't just take little bits here and there to suit your narrative.

This verse in Matthew is the last day. This is where he gathers all the believers and non-believers and judges them at the Great White throne Judgement. He separates the sheep and the goats at the GWT judgement. This too aligns with John 6:39 and also John 11:24.

In the end, there is more than one view to these verses that makes perfect sense. Since there is more than one view, you cannot say that without any doubt that your view is 100% correct. I believe that you are wording what the apostles have written to suit your own understanding of the end times events. But there is another view and therefore, you cannot claim that your view is the authoritative view.
I do not believe that the verses you have mentioned say beyond a shadow of doubt that the next return of Jesus will be also with the Rapture of all the believers. That is not clearly stated.