The Rapture

[ReverendRV]

Why did God decide to have two returns? I don't know. (i can speculate) But when one reads of both accounts there is clearly a difference.

Admittedly, I don't understand Eschatology very well. But why would one Return being horseless, and the other not being horseless; prove they are different Returns of Christ? If they can't be the same Return, how are the seven Seals, Trumpets and Bowls; not also different Tribulations?

 

[GeneZ]

In the book of Acts chapter 1:9-11 we read about the ascension of Christ where he ascends into the clouds then the angels say Jesus will return in the same way he left.

In 1 Thes 4: 13-18 Paul writes about the return of Christ at the rapture of the church...

In Rev 19:11-16 we see another return of Jesus...and Jesus is riding a white horse.

Concerning the rapture and its description....there is no white horse mentioned....as Jesus returns like he left just like the angels said.

The Rapture is not the returning of Christ as he had left.

If the Rapture were the returning as he had left? He would have to come through the clouds and be standing on earth to gather us to the Resurrection.

The Rapture is different than His returning to earth. For He never lands on earth in the Rapture. We are gathered above the earth into the clouds.. In the Second Coming he will be standing on the earth.

hope that helps!

grace and peace ...............

 

[Carbon]

The Rapture is not the returning of Christ as he had left.

If the Rapture were the returning as he had left? He would have to come through the clouds and be standing on earth to gather us to the Resurrection.

The Rapture is different than His returning to earth. For He never lands on earth in the Rapture. We are gathered above the earth into the clouds.. In the Second Coming he will be standing on the earth.

hope that helps!

grace and peace ...............

Is that so?

 

[Selah7]

Hi. I’ll go ahead and repost this. We have to remember that John was taken into the future —NOW.

The FIRST SEAL: The Antichrist

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold, a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The rider of this first white horse in Revelation 6:2 is the Antichrist, an imitation of the “faithful and true“ Christ of Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:11-13 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them; and power was given him over all kindreds, and tonques, and nations.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In the book of Daniel, it is said that "his power shall be might... that he shall “destroy wonderfully" (Dan. 8. 24) and that "he shall stretch forth his hand upon the countries" (Daniel 11:36, 42).

The “beginning of sorrows” begins when the first rider on the white horse (THE Antichrist) appears. This Antichrist is the the one who will make war with the saints to overcome them, because IT WAS GIVEN TO HIM to wear the crown to deceive to go forth and overcome (all people/nations and tribes).
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The SECOND SEAL: War

Revelation 6:3 And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, “Come and see. “

Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Matthew 24:6-7 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

The first rider, or Antichrist, comes in peaceably; this is how he is able to come/enter/rise undetected and “destroy wonderfully,” and his hand will stretch forth (universal dominance) upon the countries—the whole earth.

*Notice how the seals match up with the Olivet Prophecy of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

 

[Selah7]

The four horses are not for real. They’re symbolic!View attachment 230

 

[TheWordIsOne]

greeting
instead of worrying about the rapture, you should worry about confessing your sin day and night to Christ because Satan wants you

before our God day and night
Revelation 12:10 ​

The Seed of Sin
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:15

Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
1 Thessalonians 2:16

They conceive trouble and bring forth futility; Their womb prepares deceit."
Job 15:35

Behold, the wicked brings forth iniquity; Yes, he conceives trouble and brings forth falsehood.
Psalm 7:14

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin, my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5

No one calls for justice, Nor does any plead for truth. They trust in empty words and speak lies;
They conceive evil and bring forth iniquity.
Isaiah 59:4

But there No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:13

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because all sinned
Romans 5:12

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

The Tempter
Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan.
Matthew 4:1-3

The Accuse
"Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for Satan the accuser of God’s people, who accused them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:10

Joshua the high priest is standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him.
And the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebukes you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebukes you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"
Zech 3:1-2

 

[GeneZ]

greeting
instead of worrying about the rapture, you should worry about confessing your sin day and night to Christ because Satan wants you

​

No one worries about the Rapture. We rejoice about it. That is, for those whom the Spirit bears witness to our spirit.

Mind if I ask? How much do you sin? Confessing sin day and night????????
Now, that's something to worry about! For I would wonder if the Holy Spirit were in me to give me the grace not to sin.


But, then. You may be a very young believer. So, in that case? You're excused.

 

[GeneZ]

The four horses are not for real. They’re symbolic!View attachment 230

Mr Ed dislikes your interpretation.

Here is Mr Ed getting a Bible lesson... He says you're wrong.

 

[Eleanor]

True...

Is his point though, that they are two Returns of Christ because one Return is Horseless?

Yes.

 

[Eleanor]

The Rapture is not the returning of Christ as he had left.

If the Rapture were the returning as he had left? He would have to come through the clouds and be standing on earth to gather us to the Resurrection.

The Rapture is different than His returning to earth. For He never lands on earth in the Rapture. We are gathered above the earth into the clouds.. In the Second Coming he will be standing on the earth.

hope that helps!

grace and peace ...............

Not according to Jesus in Mt 24:30-31, 1 Th 4:15-18, 1 Co 6:2 and MT 25:31-33, where

"the Son of Man comes on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory, where he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other " (Mt 24:30-31),

who have been "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Th 4:15-18) and

will come with him to judge the world (1 Co 6:2) when he "comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, to his judgment throne here on earth where all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He wil put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left. . ."(Mt 25:31-33).

 

[Selah7]

Admittedly, I don't understand Eschatology very well. But why would one Return being horseless, and the other not being horseless; prove they are different Returns of Christ? If they can't be the same Return, how are the seven Seals, Trumpets and Bowls; not also different Tribulations?

Jesus will be returning only one more time—at the 7th trumpet—the white horse of Revelation 19.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

- Revelation 19:11-14 (KJV)

The first white horse of Revelation 6 is the fake Christ who comes at the sixth trumpet. He comes before the true Christ. His one intent is to deceive the world into worshiping him. Jesus tells us not to be deceived!

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

- Matthew 24:23-24 (KJV)

 

[ReverendRV]

Jesus will be returning only one more time—at the 7th trumpet—the white horse of Revelation 19.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

- Revelation 19:11-14 (KJV)

The first white horse of Revelation 6 is the fake Christ who comes at the sixth trumpet. He comes before the true Christ. His one intent is to deceive the world into worshiping him. Jesus tells us not to be deceived!

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

- Matthew 24:23-24 (KJV)

The fake Christ?

 

[Selah7]

The fake Christ?

The Antichrist

 

[Eleanor]

The fake Christ?

Keeping in mind, Rev, that these are personal interpretations of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.
No interpretation in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching can be correct.

 

[Wordsmith]

Because you have proven yourself unable to see too much truth to find your opinion worthy of taking the time with you to reason.

Wow, I guess I should consider myself rebuked by someone who chose to be on a debate forum, chose to debate a particular doctrine, chose to belittle me and my motives when you don't even know me. You forgot I believed the same doctrine at one time and through my study The Lord led my away from it because it is not found in the pages of scripture. The problem I see here is many claims are made without scripture and when a scriptural point is made it is often met with short snide remarks of no substance and no real response to the actual points made.

My question to you is why are you on this forum, well me answer for you. It is because you believe you are right. Well news flash we all think we are right and debate is how people make their points and discuss them.

I do not know what sect you have been indoctrinated in. But it reeks of antagonism towards what is to comfort the believer.

Another slur. The post trib view is not exactly some wild crazy doctrine. IU think world wide you might just find it more accepted than you view.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ​

to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ​

Therefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thes 4:17-18​

Great scripture I just believe it happens at a different time than you and if you stake your belief system on it you should be able and willing to defend it with your Bible.

You come here like you are jealous of the encouragement we have found and want to destroy it.

I am not jealous of of anything here. True encouragement is not riddled with error.

I'm letting you know quickly how you are coming across here. Seen it in my younger years and saw how it works.
Its depressing. Not because you can convince us that we are wrong.
But its depressing to see a person making it know that he is throwing away his time that could have been used to know and glorify Christ.

Why are you here my friend ? This is a debate forum are you just here to be right or or you here to look at views other than your own and discuss them without insulting those you disagree with? My brother I can tell you what I believe and also tell you why I believe it, and defend it with chapter and verse. Can you do the same without being offended?

 

[GeneZ]

Wow, I guess I should consider myself rebuked by someone who chose to be on a debate forum, chose to debate a particular doctrine, chose to belittle me and my motives when you don't even know me.

I don't know you. That is true.

You are either playing the Devil's advocate, by citing misleading Scripture that some apostate sects use?

Or, you have too much knowledge of the Word to be with excuse. For you must willfully turn a blind eye to the passages that would tell you and let you know that your conclusion can not stand.

And, you do this too often to be considered an occasional error like we all fall into at times.

 

[Wordsmith]

Why do you proudly call yourself "Wordsmith?" When you have shown yourself inept with the Word?

It's only a handle you attached the word "proudly" to it.

You have memorized all the teachings of those who oppose orthodoxy.

I Have studied these things. not just memorized . Orthodoxy, is that what you believe pre-trib iis n the world wide body fo Chris? You might just find yourself shocked at how wide the post trib belief is held.

You attempt to dismantle. But, never build up with it afterwards. That's bad.

Sorry you feel that way.

You have shown yourself having a natural gift for memorizing Scripture.

Nope, I have spent a lot of time studying FOR MYSELF and just buying what some are selling

To only misapply it. Which leaves you without excuse.

Sorry, but that is only your opinion.

Oh well... I suppose every forum attracts the antagonist type for testing those who are faithful..
Seen it too often to not know what it is when I now see it.

So any one who disagrees with a pet doctrine is antagonistic? Wow!

Unless you have been assigned to this forum to challenge the faith of believers to stir up more postings?

I am not heard to challenge faith. I am doing the same thing you are doing. defending my beliefs, sorry if that offends you.

That too, is bad for a Christian forum where some come to relax and fellowship... and build each other up in the Word.

If you are looking for relaxation why are you hanging out on a controversial doctrine thread?

 

[Wordsmith]

I don't know you. That is true.

You are either playing the Devil's advocate, by citing misleading Scripture that some apostate sects use?

Or, you have too much knowledge of the Word to be with excuse. For you must willfully turn a blind eye to the passages that would tell you and let you know that your conclusion can not stand.

And, you do this too often to be considered an occasional error like we all fall into at times.

Maybe you should just ignore me. This conversation is finished.

 

[Selah7]

Keeping in mind, Rev, that these are personal interpretations of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.
No interpretation in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching can be correct.

Revelation 10:8 "And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth."

The little book which is open is God's Word, the Bible. This book is not sealed and never has been. It is open to us as believers—but we need to “take it” and study it (2 Timothy 2:15) to avoid confusion.

Revelation 10:9 "And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey."

@ReverendRV

 

[Eleanor]

Revelation 10:8 "And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth."

The little book which is open is God's Word, the Bible. This book is not sealed and never has been. It is open to us as believers—but we need to “take it” and study it (2 Timothy 2:15) to avoid confusion.

Revelation 10:9 "And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey."
@ReverendRV

None of which is contrary to what God said to Miriam in his defense of Moses, where he told Miriam that he gives prophecy in riddles, and not clearly (Nu 12:8).

RIddles are subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being they must not be in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching,
for God does not contradict himself in his word.