The Rapture

[GeneZ]

It's only a handle you attached the word "proudly" to it.


I Have studied these things. not just memorized . Orthodoxy, is that what you believe pre-trib iis n the world wide body fo Chris? You might just find yourself shocked at how wide the post trib belief is held.

Not surprised....

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3

There is no comfort in thinking one must go through shock and terrors of the Tribulation before the Lord takes us out from it.
Paul told us to comfort one another with the Rapture understanding.

 

[GeneZ]

Maybe you should just ignore me. This conversation is finished.

I shall... On your request.

 

[Wordsmith]

Only One-Third of Pastors Share 'Left Behind' End Times Theology

Here's how 1,000 Protestant clergy disagree on the rapture, the Antichrist, and other points of eschatology.

www.christianitytoday.com

What is Orthodoxy on this topic?

 

[Carbon]

You still avoid dealing with the points I made. Why is that?

Some have a difficult time with that.

 

[GeneZ]

Some have a difficult time with that.

Let others ask then. Ask just one point at a time.


If he gave one point at a time I would have answered. For only one point to deal with might take a considerable amount to cover.

But when someone stacks their reasons? It would require a thesis to respond to. Not a post in a forum.

Besides his alleged counters can often be generalized and nothing specific.
Giving nothing to work with, other than what I have to imagine what he is getting at.

 

[GeneZ]

Believers submit to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not "control" anyone, we have free will.

Giving it another try...........

When we submit/yield to God in the Spirit the Holy Spirit controls our sin nature. And, by doing so? That frees up our will.
The sin nature will oppress free will if it has its way.

The Holy Spirit must govern us in that manner! Not, turn us into robots.

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.
They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." Gal 5:17

That's what was meant.....

 

[Eleanor]

Giving it another try...........
When we submit/yield to God in the Spirit the Holy Spirit controls our sin nature. And, by doing so? That frees up our will.
The sin nature will oppress free will if it has its way.
The Holy Spirit must govern us in that manner! Not, turn us into robots.
For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.
They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want." Gal 5:17
That's what was meant.....

Or does it mean the flesh keeps you from perfect obedience to the Spirit (Ro 8:5-8), which obedience is what you want in your spirit?

 

[CrowCross]

Admittedly, I don't understand Eschatology very well. But why would one Return being horseless, and the other not being horseless; prove they are different Returns of Christ? If they can't be the same Return, how are the seven Seals, Trumpets and Bowls; not also different Tribulations?

The first return Jesus comes back...and meets us in the air. This is called the resurrection and rapture.... Jesus comes back for His saints (bride) and takes them back to heaven...back to the house He built for us.

The other return is called the "second coming". Here Jesus returns on a white horse and actully comes back and stands on earth and leads the final battle.

 

[CrowCross]

The four horses are not for real. They’re symbolic!View attachment 230

How do you know?

 

[Selah7]

How do you know?

How do you know they’re not? View attachment 238

 

[CrowCross]

How do you know they’re not? View attachment 238

They could be.....in a previous post I said the leader may actually be riding a Horse....View image.

Or maybe the white horse of the 4 horseman is symbolic of these white vehicles,....,see image

 

[Wordsmith]

We are all right (in our own eyes)

We all can point out the error (with pinpoint accuracy).

If anyone thinks they have light we may not have they must be a heretic.

Has any of us ever had to admit to ourselves or others we were wrong about a doctrine?

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We all do the above , Right?

Thats how we have Baptist, Methodists, Catholics, Pentecostals Lutherans, and how many more are there? Which ever group one belongs to has to be the correct one, Right?

Let me submit to you that every one of these groups that take Jesus as their Lord and Saviour have somethings right but none of them have all things right.

The problem is figuring out which things are right.

 

[GeneZ]

We are all right (in our own eyes)

We all can point out the error (with pinpoint accuracy).

If anyone thinks they have light we may not have they must be a heretic.

Has any of us ever had to admit to ourselves or others we were wrong about a doctrine?

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We all do the above , Right?

Thats how we have Baptist, Methodists, Catholics, Pentecostals Lutherans, and how many more are there? Which ever group one belongs to has to be the correct one, Right?

Let me submit to you that every one of these groups that take Jesus as their Lord and Saviour have somethings right but none of them have all things right.

The problem is figuring out which things are right.

Can we have this go on record, please?

You do not follow the doctrine of the Rapture.

Can we start there?

Now...

The only group that stands a chance of being correct (a good deal of the time) is the group that is wiling to change (repent) when they have been shown what is right when they have been wrong.

Simply being shown you are wrong only perpetuates going nowhere as long as a correct understanding is not established.
Its like the Armenian - Calvinism feud. Neither side knows the correct answer, and they will be in conflict without end for that reason.

We also have the Catholic vs Reformation endless debates.

How many find the truth that leads to the life Jesus said can be ours? Well... He said that they way that leads to the destruction of the spiritual life He came to give us is "broad and wide." Meaning, many choices. Only a few will find the way that leads to securing that life. Only a few teachers will be that good out of many to be found...


So it is.

 

[Eleanor]

We are all right (in our own eyes)
We all can point out the error (with pinpoint accuracy).
If anyone thinks they have light we may not have they must be a heretic.
Has any of us ever had to admit to ourselves or others we were wrong about a doctrine?

If I might add that prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) are not doctrine.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
We all do the above , Right?
Thats how we have Baptist, Methodists, Catholics, Pentecostals Lutherans, and how many more are there? Which ever group one belongs to has to be the correct one, Right?
Let me submit to you that every one of these groups that take Jesus as their Lord and Saviour have somethings right but none of them have all things right.
The problem is figuring out which things are right.

 

[Eleanor]

Can we have this go on record, please?
You do not follow the doctrine of the Rapture.
Can we start there?
Now...
The only group that stands a chance of being correct (a good deal of the time) is the group that is wiling to change (repent) when they have been shown what is right when they have been wrong.

Does that apply to you on the following NT teaching?

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture is (occurs at the time of) the judgment:

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

If one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not locate the rapture with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time, that interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, thereby making it in error, for Scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[Foghorn]

Mr Ed dislikes your interpretation.

Here is Mr Ed getting a Bible lesson... He says you're wrong.

“Stop, I say stop it boy, you’re doin’ alot of choppin’ but no chips are flyin’

 

[Wordsmith]

If I might add that prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) are not doctrine.

Doctrine? Maybe not, but pre-trib sure has become a golden calf for some . Somethings on this topic are pretty clearly stated.

 

[Wordsmith]

Scripture does not contradict itself.

Amen!

 

[Eleanor]

Doctrine? Maybe not, but pre-trib sure has become a golden calf for some . Somethings on this topic are pretty clearly stated.

Stated in authoritative NT apostolic teaching or in personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8)?

 

[ChristB4us]

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

At death the soul goes to be with the Lord in heaven.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Raised at the LAST day not before the tribulation!

Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

These are not resurrected Christians who have been raptured previously. These are the souls of saints that had died and went to be with the Lord at death and will be reunited with a resurrected eternal body at His coming after the tribulation.

Nowhere does this say we are removed from the planet and taken back to heaven for 3 1/2 or 7 years!

Yes we will rise and meet Him in the air but nowhere does this say we return to heaven.


Yes we will always be with Him, but when He comes Jesus sets up shop right here on earth. There is no passage that clearly states we are raptured and go back to heaven. These scriptures you provided do not say that, do you have others? Pre-trib believers make assumptions that are not stated in scripture.

How do you apply this to mean below?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I would read that the rapture takes place before the great tribulation which in turns we are living in the tribulation of the latter days BEFORE that great tribulation comes.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

That is why we are to be ready as found abiding in Him as His disciples per John 15:1-8 & Luke 12:40-49 as well as being willing to go by leaving everything we love or cherish behind; Luke 14:15-33 for why we need t pray that we are not overcharged by the cares of this life so we can escape what is coming on the earth in being received as vessels unto honor in His House to attend the Mariage Supper in Heaven Luke 21:33-36