The Rapture

[Wordsmith]

It shows Christ returning to earth on a white horse...Key word, returning.

In acts 1 the angels say Jesus will return the same way He left.

In 1 Thes 4 Jesus is shown returning in the air...in the clouds at the rapture....there is no white horse.

It's obvious Jesus returns first at the rapture thena second time on the white horse where Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives which splits.

I may be wrong but I do not believe there has been anyone posting on this thread that does not believe in a resurrection and catching up of those of those which are alive when Jesus returns. It seems to me the point of contention is the when of the resurrection and the immediate destination of those resurrected and those caught up.

It is for that reason I believe in the idea of harmonizing scripture on this topic rather than dividing them up into neat little piles. All scripture on the coming of the Lord should be harmonized by what they have in common not divided up into by what differences they have. As long as one group takes one method and the other group choses the other method there will be no consensus and no resolution to the debate we are having. There are no 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical in their wording, but yet some get two comings out of those differences, why not 3 or 4?

One example is Rev 19:11-16 is a coming of the Lord passage but the argument is made there is no resurrection mentioned the focus is only on judgement. Then in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 the focus in on resurrection and not judgement, so one side jumps to the conclusion these are 2 different comings. I believe that is error and can be illustrated by comparing 2 passages that many pre-tribbers would consider rapture scriptures.

Look at 1 Corintians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

1 Corin. 15 no mention of the Lord, no mention of the archangel, 1 Corin says last trump, 1 Thess. says trump of God, no mention of clouds, no mention of being caught up only changed, no mention bringing those that sleep with Him. If we apply the same set of rule to these 2 passages as we do others we could claim these 2 are different comings of the Lord. It appears to me rules of interpretation are sometimes based on convenience and not common sense.

I have occasionally ask for the people to point out 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical , but I have never had a response.

Below are some comparisons:

Coming and Resurrection passages.

Clouds mentioned. Matt 24:30, Matt 26:64 Mark 13:26, Mark 14:62 ,Luke 21:27, 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 14:14, Dan 7:13

Angels or angel mentioned. Matt. 24:31, Matt25:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess 4:15, Rev 14:15

Trumpet mentioned. Matt 24:31, 1 Thess 4:15, 1 Corin 15:52,

Coming with saints or armies mentioned. 1 Thess 4:14, Rev 19:14, Jude 14, Zech 14:5,

Gathering mentioned. Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess 4:17, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 14:16

Dead raised mentioned. 1 Thess 4:14, 1 Corin 15:22, 1 Corin 15:51, Dan: 12:2, John 5:28-29, John 6:39,40,44,54

Riding a white horse mentioned. Rev 19:11

His feet touching ground mentioned. Zech 14:4

Sickle or reaping mentioned. Matt. 13:41, Rev 14:14,15,16,17,18,19

Crown or crowns mentioned. Rev 14:14 , Rev 19:12

Sword Mentioned. Rev 19:15 &21

Timing mentioned. Matt 24:29 , Mark 13:24, 2 Thess 2:3

What is the point here. Pretribbers often point out the differences in coming of the Lord passages to separate the them into a rapture or second coming. Post tribbers often point out the things that match to say this is the same event. If you look for the things that match you can tie everyone of these verses to 1 event. If you look for the things that are different you can make multiple comings. No one scripture ever mentions multiple comings in the plural, it is always “coming” as in one. Matt 16:28, Matt.24:3, Matt 24:27,Matt. 24:30, Matt 24:37, Matt 24:39, Matt 24:48, Matt 25:27, Matt. 24:64, 1 Corin 1:7, 1 Corin 15:23, 1 Thess. 2:19, 1 Thess. 3:13, 1 Thess 4:15, 1 Thess 5:23, 2 Thess. 2:1, 2 Thess. 2:8, James 5:7, James 5:8, 2 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 3:4, 1 John 2:28. All of these speak of one coming.

There is only 1 coming of the Lord in scripture yet in our future.

There is no return trip to heaven for those resurrected and caught up in scripture, that is only assumed.

 

[Wordsmith]

Fist clarify something for me, please?
Are you post millennial? amillennial?

Is that the only choices you offer?

 

[Wordsmith]

Darn...you mean we'll miss the marriage supper of the lamb? That's a bummer.

What date, location and menu can you scripturally attach to the Marriage supper?

 

[Wordsmith]

Scripture does reveal it.

Then show us!

Who is the Restrainer then that Paul speaks of?
And, how can he be taken out of the way?

Scripture does not state exactly who or what. I posted my belief and the biblical reasons for that belief in post #507

We are not supposed to know?

Somethings are clear in scripture others are not. I stated my reasons why I think it COULD BE Michael and why I do not think it is the HS or the church.

Some try to be dogmatic when claiming it has to be the HS or the church but the real truth is, that is what has to be so for the pre-trib doctrine to survive the rebuttal of 2 Thessalonians 2.

There is no pre-trib rapture of the church anywhere in scripture, many passages have to be massaged and manipulated to make it all work.

The white horse argument falls flat.

 

[Wordsmith]

Like I asked the others...where is the white horse?

Where is the white horse in any other coming of the Lord passages? Is the white horse coming a unique coming or is it just one point left out of other coming of the Lord passages. Your white horse theory is not proof of anything.

How many more comings of the Lord do you actually believe in?

 

[CrowCross]

Michael has the strength to do any task assigned to him by the Lord.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

So you would say the restrainer is more than Michael...it is also his angels.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

When Michael “stands up” is when the “time of trouble” begins.

Does stand up all mean removed?

If Michael and his angels can eject satan and his angels from heaven, he very well can restrain the man of sin on this earth if so assigned by God almighty who created both Michael and satan. So any theory that stetes “The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining” is not factually correct.

So, Christians praying can't restrain? Yikes.

In my opinion it makes no sense to say the Holy Spirit will be removed from anything or anywhere. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and thus cannot and will not be removed from this earth.

It's bigger than being omnipresent...If the Holy Spirit is given to people...why can't that ...part, portion, element...of the Holy Spirit be taken up with the christians in the rapture?

If the Holy Spirit leaves with the church at a pretrib rapture how will anyone be saved after that?

People were saved prior to the day of pentecost.

Since it is clear there are born again, Jesus loving “Saints” here all through the tribulation, this Holy Spirit leaving doctrine is false.

It gets deep here...as we know people prior to the day of pentecost were saved without receiving the Holy Spirit. This is problematic for your statement.

Now if you want to argue it is just the church empowered by the Holy Spirit restraining the man of sin why could not those saints of the tribulation, that are born again with the same Holy Spirit restrain the evil one even if the rest of the church was gone?

Because the number initially is reduced to zero. Satan goes clamming during low tide.

It is not the working of iniquity that is being restrained it is the revealing of the man of sin as the man of sin that is restrained. That task can be assigned to Michael, if God so chooses for it is God who runs the universe.

Many of the anti-christ works, plans are restrained...and he will be know by those not deceived through his deeds and actions.

I am not claiming Michael is absolutely the restrainer, I am claiming he could be. I have and can offer far more scriptural evidence for Michael than anyone can for the HS and church. I am claiming that the claim of many that it has to be the Holy Spirit is not supported by scripture in any way.

I have in the past considered Michael as the restrainer...but have settled that it is the Holy Spirit filled Christians in prayer.

The bottom line of this argument is pretribbers need it to be so to support a unsupportable doctrine.

reading your post I didn't really see it as showing the pre-trib view as unsupportable.

 

[CrowCross]

What date, location and menu can you scripturally attach to the Marriage supper?

If Rev is linear in chapter 19...it is just prior to Christ returning on the white horse.

It appears to be in heaven...as to the menu we'll have to wait and see....unless you're a posttribber and miss it.

 

[CrowCross]

Where is the white horse in any other coming of the Lord passages? Is the white horse coming a unique coming or is it just one point left out of other coming of the Lord passages. Your white horse theory is not proof of anything.

How many more comings of the Lord do you actually believe in?

Preincarnation...Christophany...Like with Jacobs wrestling match....but I don't count them.

Incarnation.
Rapture.
White horse.

I usually say 2...meaning after Jesus' ascension. One when Jesus returns as he left...and a second time on a white horse and you should understand Jesus didn't ascend on a white horse.

 

[Eleanor]

It shows Christ returning to earth on a white horse...Key word, returning.

In acts 1 the angels say Jesus will return the same way He left.

In 1 Thes 4 Jesus is shown returning in the air...in the clouds at the rapture....there is no white horse.

It's obvious Jesus returns first at the rapture thena second time on the white horse where Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives which splits.

No allowance for Revelation being figurative?

 

[CrowCross]

I may be wrong but I do not believe there has been anyone posting on this thread that does not believe in a resurrection and catching up of those of those which are alive when Jesus returns. It seems to me the point of contention is the when of the resurrection and the immediate destination of those resurrected and those caught up.

It is for that reason I believe in the idea of harmonizing scripture on this topic rather than dividing them up into neat little piles. All scripture on the coming of the Lord should be harmonized by what they have in common not divided up into by what differences they have. As long as one group takes one method and the other group choses the other method there will be no consensus and no resolution to the debate we are having. There are no 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical in their wording, but yet some get two comings out of those differences, why not 3 or 4?

Why not 3 or 4? because the bible only mentions 2.
Why do some here think there is only one return when the bible speaks of two returns? One with a white horse and one without?

One example is Rev 19:11-16 is a coming of the Lord passage but the argument is made there is no resurrection mentioned the focus is only on judgement. Then in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 the focus in on resurrection and not judgement, so one side jumps to the conclusion these are 2 different comings. I believe that is error and can be illustrated by comparing 2 passages that many pre-tribbers would consider rapture scriptures.

Look at 1 Corintians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

1 Corin. 15 no mention of the Lord, no mention of the archangel, 1 Corin says last trump, 1 Thess. says trump of God, no mention of clouds, no mention of being caught up only changed, no mention bringing those that sleep with Him. If we apply the same set of rule to these 2 passages as we do others we could claim these 2 are different comings of the Lord. It appears to me rules of interpretation are sometimes based on convenience and not common sense.

I have occasionally ask for the people to point out 2 coming of the Lord passages that are identical , but I have never had a response.

Below are some comparisons:

Coming and Resurrection passages.

Clouds mentioned. Matt 24:30, Matt 26:64 Mark 13:26, Mark 14:62 ,Luke 21:27, 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 14:14, Dan 7:13

Angels or angel mentioned. Matt. 24:31, Matt25:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess 4:15, Rev 14:15

Trumpet mentioned. Matt 24:31, 1 Thess 4:15, 1 Corin 15:52,

Coming with saints or armies mentioned. 1 Thess 4:14, Rev 19:14, Jude 14, Zech 14:5,

Gathering mentioned. Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thess 4:17, 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 14:16

Dead raised mentioned. 1 Thess 4:14, 1 Corin 15:22, 1 Corin 15:51, Dan: 12:2, John 5:28-29, John 6:39,40,44,54

Riding a white horse mentioned. Rev 19:11

His feet touching ground mentioned. Zech 14:4

Sickle or reaping mentioned. Matt. 13:41, Rev 14:14,15,16,17,18,19

Crown or crowns mentioned. Rev 14:14 , Rev 19:12

Sword Mentioned. Rev 19:15 &21

Timing mentioned. Matt 24:29 , Mark 13:24, 2 Thess 2:3

I don't really plan on going over each and every verse.

What is the point here. Pretribbers often point out the differences in coming of the Lord passages to separate the them into a rapture or second coming. Post tribbers often point out the things that match to say this is the same event. If you look for the things that match you can tie everyone of these verses to 1 event. If you look for the things that are different you can make multiple comings. No one scripture ever mentions multiple comings in the plural, it is always “coming” as in one. Matt 16:28, Matt.24:3, Matt 24:27,Matt. 24:30, Matt 24:37, Matt 24:39, Matt 24:48, Matt 25:27, Matt. 24:64, 1 Corin 1:7, 1 Corin 15:23, 1 Thess. 2:19, 1 Thess. 3:13, 1 Thess 4:15, 1 Thess 5:23, 2 Thess. 2:1, 2 Thess. 2:8, James 5:7, James 5:8, 2 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 3:4, 1 John 2:28. All of these speak of one coming.

There is only 1 coming of the Lord in scripture yet in our future.

Not true.

There is no return trip to heaven for those resurrected and caught up in scripture, that is only assumed.

 

[CrowCross]

No allowance for Revelation being figurative?

Figurative or not...there was no figurative white horse presented at the ascension nor mentioned at the rapture in 1 These 4 or 1 Cor 15.

 

[Wordsmith]

Why not 3 or 4? because the bible only mentions 2.

Only one not two, three or four.

It is your theory leads to multiple comings not mine.

Why do some here think there is only one return when the bible speaks of two returns? One with a white horse and one without?

You put way to much stock in this horse theory.

I don't really plan on going over each and every verse.

Thats why you don't understand the point I made about harmonizing these scriptures. Thats why you are hung up on your white horse theory. "Like manner" does not necessarily mean identical in every detail. No two return of the Lord scriptures are identical in every detail, so using your logic He may return 5 or more times which is absurd. If you don't take time to study to show thyself approve don't plan on being very convincing on a false doctrine such as the pre-trib rapture.

Not true.

There is only one more coming of the Lord yet in our future, this fact from scripture is true!

 

[Wordsmith]

One when Jesus returns as he left...and a second time on a white horse and you should understand Jesus didn't ascend on a white horse.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Which coming is this 1? 2? or 3?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Where is the white horse in Matthew 24? Is this coming 1? 2? or 3?
​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Where is the white horse in Zechariah?

Is this coming 1? 2? or 3?

If you are unable or unwilling to answer the question in this post why should anyone believe your white horse theory?
​

 

[Eleanor]

Why not 3 or 4? because the bible only mentions 2.
Why do some here think there is only one return when the bible speaks of two returns? One with a white horse and one without?

One from authoritative NT apostolic teaching, and another from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretion, which apostolic teaching is not.

 

[Eleanor]

Figurative or not...there was no figurative white horse presented at the ascension nor mentioned at the rapture in 1 These 4 or 1 Cor 15.

Assumes white horse in a higlhy figurative book is literal rather than figurative.

Time for a second repeat:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

Authoritative NT apostolic teaching is that there is only one more return of Jesus, at the end of time.

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture is (occurs at the time of) the judgment:

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

If one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not locate the rapture with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time, that interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, thereby making it in error, for Scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[Selah7]

No allowance for Revelation being figurative?

The four horses of the apocalypse are symbolic, methinks.

 

[GeneZ]

It shows Christ returning to earth on a white horse...Key word, returning.

In acts 1 the angels say Jesus will return the same way He left.

In 1 Thes 4 Jesus is shown returning in the air...in the clouds at the rapture....there is no white horse.

It's obvious Jesus returns first at the rapture then a second time on the white horse where Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives which splits.

One fine tune...

Jesus does not return to earth with the Rapture. He remains hidden above the earth as He gathers His Church who will be shocked silly to what glory their resurrection bodies with give their souls!

Then He takes us to heaven for seven years to be evaluated to see if we shall serve with Him for the Millennium, and for the Marriage supper of the Lamb. We are still going to be eating! But it will be for total pleasure, not sustenance as we have now.

A new movie coming out....

"The Grinch that Stole the Rapture!"


(no color - only in black and white)

.​

 

[Eleanor]

One fine tune...

Jesus does not return to earth with the Rapture. He remains hidden above the earth as He gathers His Church who will be shocked silly to what glory their resurrection bodies with give their souls!

Then He takes us to heaven for seven years to be evaluated to see if we shall serve with Him for the Millennium, and for the Marriage supper of the Lamb. We are still going to be eating! But it will be for total pleasure, not sustenance as we have now.

A new movie coming out....

"The Grinch that Stole the Rapture!"


(no color - only in black and white)

.​

No such thing in NT authoritative apostolic teaching where:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture is (occurs at the time of) the judgment:

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

If one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not locate the rapture with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time, that interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, thereby making it in error, for Scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[CrowCross]

You put way to much stock in this horse theory.

LOL....because you have no answer for it you say I put to much stock in it.

 

[CrowCross]

No such thing in NT authoritative apostolic teaching where:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
(The saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds, whereupon they descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment.)
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture is (occurs at the time of) the judgment:

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

If one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not locate the rapture with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time, that interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, thereby making it in error, for Scripture does not contradict itself.

Where's the white horse?