The elephant named Trinity.~

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Oh, that's rich. . .

Yes, it is rich because the trinity is not limited to a one person God. Therefore, the expression, “Jesus is God” contradicts the meaning of the trinity.

We all know you want to be allowed sloppy short hand lingo but the @Rella ‘s of the world won’t have it. Properly speaking, the trinity formula does not allow such sloppy short hand lingo but ‘Jesus is the 2nd person of the 3-person triune God.’ But that does not satisfy those IDOLATORS who seek to give glory to the son reserved by Scripture as glory, all glory, belonging to God (the Father) alone.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, it is rich because the trinity is not limited to a one person God. Therefore, the expression, “Jesus is God” contradicts the meaning of the trinity.

Who made that rule?

Perhaps a familiarization with the doctrine of the Trinity would clear up some of the confusion.

The Father is the one God.
The Son, Jesus, is the one God (proceeding out from within, eternally generating from the Father--Jn 8:42, 16:27, 28, 17:8).
The Holy Spirit is the one God (proceeding out from within, eternally generating from the Father--Jn 15:26, necessarily making them both God).

That's three distinct persons in the one God (one Being).

those IDOLATORS who seek to give glory to the son reserved by Scripture as glory, all glory, belonging to God (the Father) alone.

God is all three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in one God, one Being.
To give glory to God is to give glory to all three persons.
To give glory to one person is to give glory to all three persons, for they are one God/one Being, in three distinct divine persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, three persons in one Divine Being/one God.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Who made that rule?

Not who, WHAT.

1. Definition.
2. Logic.
3. Language Usage.
4. Explicit Scripture

1 does not mean 3. If 1 is X, then 3 is not X.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

O is another name for God.

ROFLMAO.

View attachment 842

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

God is all three persons,

This is nonsense in application. God gave Jesus the bread. Who gave the bread? One person, or Being, if you prefer (and it aint Jesus).

 

[grace2]

But, have you never heard of faith and that without faith no one can please God?

What about it?

I have no problem understanding what it means.

You cannot please God by dismissing Jesus' word which you trins do.

Don't come to me by saying you don't dismiss His word.

Your reasoning is all flawed.

It is all out of context with the scripture.

If you can see that trin churches are humongous, you will not continue with your flawed readings.

 

[grace2]

Have you seen them all? And they are all huge?!! My,my. must be something in the water.

my my my......

 

[grace2]

If it is not there YOU... ESPECIALLY cannot use it. It makes you out to be a hypocrite.

hypocrite is you that you claim the trinity is in the Bible.

 

[Arial]

But that does not satisfy those IDOLATORS who seek to give glory to the son reserved by Scripture as glory, all glory, belonging to God (the Father) alone.

So, in Phil 2:9-11 it says:

9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If you are right in saying Jesus is not God, then this passage is saying that the name Jesus is higher than the name YHWH. And that it is to the glory of God to give him a name above even YHWH. Or if we use LORD and Lord, and they are not the same in essence, then Lord is higher than LORD.

Also the word translated "Bow" is kampse and is used in biblical Greek as a religious veneration used of worshipers. In Romans 14:11 it is used of God and God is called Lord, not LORD. Again of God in Eph 3:14.

The above Scripture identified Jesus as one to be worshiped as God is worshiped. And there is only one God. Do the math.

 

[Arial]

hypocrite is you that you claim the trinity is in the Bible.

How is that hypocrisy?

 

[Eleanor]

Not who, WHAT.

1. Definition.

Check. . Distinction among personhoods of God, angels and humans, among divine, human and angelic is not foreign to Scripture.

1. Logic.

Check. . .It is not human reasoning or logic that determine divine truth.
Where is the "logic" in Ro 9:10-13?
Were is the human reasoning in 1 Sa 15:3, Isa 55:8-9.

1. Language Usage.

Check. . .The word "sovereign" is not in Scripture, but God is sovereign nonetheless (Da 4:35).
The language of persons, beings, Godhood is common to Scripture.

1. Explicit Scripture

Check. . .See post #181 for starters. . .see Jn 8:42, 16:27, 28, 17:8 (for Jesus), and Jn 15:26 (for the Holy Spirit).

1 does not mean 3. If 1 is X, then 3 is not X.

Check. . .Bait and switch.

1 God does not mean 3 Gods, but 1 God does mean 3 persons.

God is a divine person possessing personal attributes.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are likewise divine persons possessing personal attributes.

God being a person does not make all human persons to be God.
All human persons not being God does not make God a non-person.

If X is person, then 3 is persons

 

[Arial]

What about it?

Do you have any idea who I said that to and what it was said in response to?

 

[Eleanor]

This is nonsense in application. God gave Jesus the bread. Who gave the bread? One person, or Being, if you prefer (and it aint Jesus).

Yes, the single divine person, God the Father, gave the bread to the single divine person, God the Son,
both persons being the one God/one Being, along with the one person, the Holy Spirit--all three persons being the one God/one Being.

Don't confuse the human nature of God the Son with the divine nature of God the Son.

Jesus had the same natures as his two parents, divine and human, from his two parents, God and Mary,
just as we all have the same natures as our parents.

God is three persons in one Being, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[Arial]

This is nonsense in application. God gave Jesus the bread. Who gave the bread? One person, or Being, if you prefer (and it aint Jesus).

Take into consideration that Jesus also said He is the bread who came down from where----heaven.

 

[Runningman]

No it doesn't. If that were the case John never would have said the Word became flesh. Words cannot become flesh. Why ignore what I said?

Define how you are using "foreknowledge." There is a 10% chance that you will do that. A 90% chance that you won't. That is always the case with Unitarians.

Yes it does.

The narrative in John 1:1-14 in, in large part, personification. That's the best way to interpret John 1 in consistency with Scripture so that we don't introduce polytheism or make baseless claims about there being someone named the Word in the Old Testament saying or doing anything.

That would mean the "Word" refers to God's words, speech, or divine utterances with which He uses to creator with throughout Scripture.

When John 1:14 says "the Word become flesh" it would best be understood as Jesus being created.

 

[Runningman]

The trinitarian position is that just because Scripture says over and over again only the Father is the true God does not mean there aren't also at least 2 other's if you read between the lines. It's so ridiculous that they take their dogma as the central message of Scripture even though it is completely absent!

The mental gymnastics they invent is hilarious. Various lines of rationalization expand to far more than 3. And our friend @Rella tried yet another back door approach in the side thread on why do we believe other things not in Scripture. Blatant Appeal to Ignorance. And @Ariel pretending we ought to accept a proposition on the grounds that there is no evidence AGAINST it. 1st, that's another illogical Appeal to Ignorance. 2nd, there are mountains of evidence against it.

Some are so petty as to say NOT all the verses that say God is the Father use "alone" or "true" AS IF it is required. Language usage.

• I have $1 left. (The Bible has only "God the Father" verses which implies this is the only one since it is stated over and over again that there is only one God.)
• I have only $1 left.
• I truly have $1 left.
• I truly have only $1 left.

These sentences say the same EXACT thing. The only difference is emphasis. A fact is a fact even if there are not as many exclamation points after it to satisfy trinitarians who do not want to be satisfied.

Yes, I understand that for sure. What I have experienced in these sorts of discussions that in order to come down to the level of interacting with the Trinity doctrine is that we need to assume a specific mindset and make concessions for English grammar and logic that don't apply in the established norms of logic, reason, and grammar.

For example, the word "only" doesn't actually mean only, but rather it can become plural. Or the Son of God isn't actually a Son, but rather "God the Son" because he was paradoxically "eternally begotten." Of course, where it suits them they will deploy a different standard of interpretation. There are a lot of these kinds of examples where one needs to forgo conventional reason to interact with the doctrine. Of course, the reality is they are just twisting and corrupting the Scripture. God was never the author of confusion.

 

[Rella]

hypocrite is you that you claim the trinity is in the Bible

What would the purpose be for anyone being baptised under the formula that was specified by Jesus in the first century and still done today 2300 years later when Jesus said in Matthew 28:19

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," ???????????

Why would Jesus say that from His very own mouth?

WHY??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Check. . .It is not human reasoning or logic that determine divine truth.

Appeal to Ignorance. There is no such thing as “human” reasoning or logic. It’s either logical or not, rational or irrational.

Nothing is more irrational, less logical than 3-is-1-ism. You presume knowledge of something beyond your human understanding. It’s so ridiculous!

Your position is, even though I cannot explain it rationally and logically, I assert it is nevertheless true. Your dogma makes our God given mind an enemy to understand the Giver!

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

If you are right in saying Jesus is not God, then this passage is saying that the name Jesus is higher than the name YHWH.

Of course, above any human name. 1 Corinthians 15:27 makes this exception explicit.

 

[Arial]

Yes, it is rich because the trinity is not limited to a one person God. Therefore, the expression, “Jesus is God” contradicts the meaning of the trinity.

No it doesn't. It is simply speaking of Jesus, We also say the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father is God.

Of course, above any human name. 1 Corinthians 15:27 makes this exception explicit.

That is not what it says.Let's take a couple of steps back and begin with verse 5



5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What is the name that is above every name? It is YWHW, Eloim, Theos, Kyrios, God, LORD, Lord, whatever language you translate it to.

1 Cor 15:27 That is what Jesus as Son of Man came to do and did. That passage does not make explicit that Phil 2 is saying every human name---at all. Not even close.