Jesus was never prayed to once in the Bible

[Arial]

Exclusive doctrines aren't what gives credibility to a belief, but rather the truthfulness of the doctrine. You are agreeing with what I said and framing it as an argument, but your sleight of hand isn't good enough.

The conversation is NOT about whether a doctrine is true or not! It is about Christianity being the only religion that has the Trinity doctrine.

Your original statement of "The Trinity is a Christian doctrine and it is exclusive to Christianity. No other religion claims the Trinity. So if someone says they are Christian and also denies the Trinity, and in particular the deity of Christ, they are not Christian but something else" is false then. Now you are arguing against yourself.

It is not false. You are either deliberately not understanding what is being said in order to not actually address or accept what is said, or the problem is in comprehension. The Trinity is unique to Christianity. If that uniqueness is removed, what results has no legitimate claim to being Christian. They are basing their Christianity on something else. A Unitarian has the same belief regarding who Jesus is as to His person as the Muslim religion. Why not call yourself a Unitarian Muslim and add to that the belief that yeah, He did die for the forgiveness of my sins? Well whoops again. They don't believe He died for the forgiveness of sins so now you have still another oxymoron.

Unitarianism is its own unique religion with its own set doctrines.

This is the subject you brought up. You made the claim that the Trinity is a Christian doctrine and I addressed this directly. Please respond to what I said.

It wasn't me who brought it up. It was @Papa Smurf who asked the question of you and @Soldier of Christ1516 about what were a Unitarian and Biblical Unitarian. I simply pointed out why there is no such thing.

If you have proof of people praying to Jesus in the Bible I would be glad to see it. No one has found it yet.

They have already been given. Saying no, that is talking to Jesus not praying to Him, does not mean they weren't given.

No I am right. You're saying "The Trinity is a Christian doctrine and it is exclusive to Christianity. No other religion claims the Trinity. So if someone says they are Christian and also denies the Trinity, and in particular the deity of Christ, they are not Christian but something else." After that, looking into what the Bible says it doesn't say what you do. Therefore this isn't an opinion. You are conflating Christianity with Trinitarianism. If I don't believe what you do then I am not a Trinitarian and that is correct I am not a Trinitarian, but I am a Christian.

That does not change the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is exclusive to Christianity! Therefore, if that doctrine is absent in a religion, it falls outside of Christianity. Apostate from the Christian religion.

What exactly is it that makes you a Christian?

 

[Arial]

Amen! (Um, except that "Biblical Christian" is not an oxymoron...)

Thanks for the catch!! I have edited it.

 

[Runningman]

The conversation is NOT about whether a doctrine is true or not! It is about Christianity being the only religion that has the Trinity doctrine.

Then don't use uniqueness or exclusivity as what causes a doctrine to be Christian. What makes a doctrine true is if it's stated in the Bible. For example, the Trinity is not stated in the Bible, therefore it's a doctrine. Unitarianism is stated in the Bible, therefore it's Scripture. Doctrines and Scripture aren't the same things and doctrines are not superior to Scripture. So you statement about those who "deny the Trinity" not being Christians doesn't make any sense.

It is not false. You are either deliberately not understanding what is being said in order to not actually address or accept what is said, or the problem is in comprehension. The Trinity is unique to Christianity. If that uniqueness is removed, what results has no legitimate claim to being Christian. They are basing their Christianity on something else. A Unitarian has the same belief regarding who Jesus is as to His person as the Muslim religion. Why not call yourself a Unitarian Muslim and add to that the belief that yeah, He did die for the forgiveness of my sins? Well whoops again. They don't believe He died for the forgiveness of sins so now you have still another oxymoron.

You are once again saying the Trinity is unique to Christianity while attempting to define Christianity as Trinitarianism which is not what Christianity is. Christianity is not defined by your doctrines and beliefs, but rather what the Scripture says. For example, the Scripture states YHWH the Father is the only true God; this is what the Christian belief is regarding who God is and it's incompatible with Trinitarianism. There is no Scripture about Trinitarianism. See the difference yet?

Unitarianism is its own unique religion with its own set doctrines.

Unitarianism is a word used to describe belief about who God is and it's compatible with Scripture unlike Trinitarianism which says "one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature." Not only are these things not stated in the Bible, but the Bible directly contradicts it. So Trinitarianism, though mainstream, is actually false.

It wasn't me who brought it up. It was @Papa Smurf who asked the question of you and @Soldier of Christ1516 about what were a Unitarian and Biblical Unitarian. I simply pointed out why there is no such thing.

You brought it up. You said the Trinitarian is a Christian doctrine. @Papa Smurf didn't say this. It's time you take ownership of the things you say and stop trying to use others as your scapegoat.

They have already been given. Saying no, that is talking to Jesus not praying to Him, does not mean they weren't given.

Nothing with the word prayer or praying to Jesus is in the Bible. Praying is an exclusive for the Father because He's the only true God and Jesus taught Christians to pray to Him. Matthew 6:6-9

That does not change the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is exclusive to Christianity! Therefore, if that doctrine is absent in a religion, it falls outside of Christianity. Apostate from the Christian religion.

Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus and Jesus didn't teach anything about a Trinity. One would think that if the Trinity is who God is then this would have been important enough to even mention one time. No one mentioned it, God didn't reveal it to Jesus, etc. Now here you are saying the Trinity is an exclusive to Christianity when it isn't. You are in your own religion.

What exactly is it that makes you a Christian?

Being a follower of Jesus' teachings.

 

[Arial]

I believe @Arial probably meant "Biblical Unitarian" which is the name of a Christian denomination and I agree with the bulk majority of what they teach about. Unitarian Christian or Biblical Unitarian are not oxymorons. A Unitarian Christian believes concerning God that the Father is the only True God. What we believe about God is directly stated in the Bible in John 17:3 and other places.

Good luck finding any statement that says the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead. Trinitarians call this an "incomprehensible mystery."

It is not a mystery that the Trinity exists. That is revealed by God in His word. What is a mystery is how it is possible, and it is a mystery as to possibility, because there is no other triune being in our world by which to compare it. It is unique in other words. It is a mystery in the same sense that God Himself as eternal, knows all things, sees all things, is more powerful than anything else, creates out of nothing, causes a virgin to bring forth a child, raises the four days dead or three days dead to life and in perfect health and condition of body, are mysteries. We know they are true, because He says they are true and we trust Him. But the hows are beyond us. They are all incomprehensible to us.

Incomprehensible: impossible to comprehend.
Comprehend: to take into the mind and thoroughly understand.

It is that they are incomprehensible that classifies them as a mystery.

 

[Runningman]

It is not a mystery that the Trinity exists.

The doctrine exists.

That is revealed by God in His word.

So the Trinity isn't taught, but rather it's revealed? Is it possible people just made something up rather than actually received a revelation that not even God, Jesus, or any of the disciples had? When they spoke of God, they didn't indicate the revelation you're saying exists.

What is a mystery is how it is possible, and it is a mystery as to possibility, because there is no other triune being in our world by which to compare it. It is unique in other words.

Um, have you looked into the trinitarian type gods in history? It didn't start in the post-new testament church. This was already around way before the time you're referring to. Here's a good link.

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...arian-gods-influenced-adoption-of-the-trinity

It is a mystery in the same sense that God Himself as eternal, knows all things, sees all things, is more powerful than anything else, creates out of nothing, causes a virgin to bring forth a child, raises the four days dead or three days dead to life and in perfect health and condition of body, are mysteries. We know they are true, because He says they are true and we trust Him. But the hows are beyond us. They are all incomprehensible to us.

Those aren't mysteries because we can clearly see by the things that plainly are God's eternal power and attributes. The more we look into it we can clearly only become more and more filled with awe and wonder at creation. Yet there is no evidence about a trinity God having done this.

Incomprehensible: impossible to comprehend.
Comprehend: to take into the mind and thoroughly understand.

It is that they are incomprehensible that classifies them as a mystery.

So why do you want to try to understand God and the Bible around a mystery? By the way, many famous Trinitarian theologians and people with reputations have publicly admitted the Trinity cannot be fully understood or is a mystery.

 

[Arial]

The doctrine exists.

He Dodo, I was explaining why Trinitarians refer to it as an incomprehensible mystery. You always avoid the point. The question is, why?

So the Trinity isn't taught, but rather it's revealed? Is it possible people just made something up rather than actually received a revelation that not even God, Jesus, or any of the disciples had? When they spoke of God, they didn't indicate the revelation you're saying exists.

Everything in the Bible is being revealed by God, and it is the revelation that teaches. What is wrong with you?

Is it possible people just made something up rather than actually received a revelation that not even God, Jesus, or any of the disciples had?

Actually they got it from Jesus and the disciples in the Epistles.

Um, have you looked into the trinitarian type gods in history? It didn't start in the post-new testament church. This was already around way before the time you're referring to. Here's a good link.

The Trinitarian type gods in history have nothing to do with anything. "Trinitarian type" gods of paganism are not gods. Could you stick to the point for once?

Those aren't mysteries because we can clearly see by the things that plainly are God's eternal power and attributes. The more we look into it we can clearly only become more and more filled with awe and wonder at creation.

The first part of your sentence "mysteries" is completely unrelated to the second part of your sentence, and neither one addresses the issue of what a mystery is as defined in my post. Try and address the points being made, and stick to them, instead of wandering off. But fyi there is nothing in the knowledge of God's existence in His creation that is salvific. And nothing in it that in any way speaks to a comprehension of it.

So why do you want to try to understand God and the Bible around a mystery? By the way, many famous Trinitarian theologians and people with reputations have publicly admitted the Trinity cannot be fully understood or is a mystery.

I give up. If you aren't going to be rational, address points, stick to points; and if you are going to manufacture discussions that don't exist, there is no point in talking to you. But answer me this: Do you fully comprehend how your cell phone works---or your car? Can you still access both of those things by simply following the instructions? Does the fact that you can't comprehend their workings mean those workings don't exist?

 

[Runningman]

He Dodo, I was explaining why Trinitarians refer to it as an incomprehensible mystery. You always avoid the point. The question is, why?

A statement about the Trinity existing isn't the same thing as the Trinity existing. There is only a doctrine in some creed that someone made up.

Everything in the Bible is being revealed by God, and it is the revelation that teaches. What is wrong with you?

The Bible is the revelation and it's already given in the plainest way. Do you see John 17:1-3 is a pretty clear revelation that the Father is the only true God? Do you fault people for believing this?

Actually they got it from Jesus and the disciples in the Epistles.

Where did Jesus or the disciples say which Scriptures to look at to interpret the Trinity?

The Trinitarian type gods in history have nothing to do with anything. "Trinitarian type" gods of paganism are not gods. Could you stick to the point for once?

Your claim was "there is no other triune being in our world by which to compare it. It is unique in other words." Before Trinitarianism was a twinkle in someone's eye it was already being used in other religions. The Jews didn't believe in it. It wasn't revealed to any of the prophets of old, but here you are saying it's being revealed now?

The first part of your sentence "mysteries" is completely unrelated to the second part of your sentence, and neither one addresses the issue of what a mystery is as defined in my post. Try and address the points being made, and stick to them, instead of wandering off. But fyi there is nothing in the knowledge of God's existence in His creation that is salvific. And nothing in it that in any way speaks to a comprehension of it.

Then the same applies to the Trinity?

I give up. If you aren't going to be rational, address points, stick to points; and if you are going to manufacture discussions that don't exist, there is no point in talking to you. But answer me this: Do you fully comprehend how your cell phone works---or your car? Can you still access both of those things by simply following the instructions? Does the fact that you can't comprehend their workings mean those workings don't exist?

I don't fully comprehend them but I know where to go to learn everything I need to know. By that reasoning, we should be able to find the Trinity in the Bible. Trust me, I have looked through your creeds and just found personal opinion that doesn't align what people were saying in the Bible.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Please point to a single verse that says Jesus was either prayed to or someone taught about prayer to Jesus. Perhaps this exercise will assist in your unindoctrination.

I think you misunderstand my position. John 17, true worshippers do not worship Jesus but the Father (alone).

 

[Runningman]

I think you misunderstand my position. John 17, true worshippers do not worship Jesus but the Father (alone).

amen

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

It wasn't me who brought it up. It was @Papa Smurf who asked the question of you and @Soldier of Christ1516 about what were a Unitarian and Biblical Unitarian. I simply pointed out why there is no such thing.

So, me and @Runningman identify ourselves this way. You say there is no such thing. Nice!

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

You always avoid the point. The question is, why?

There you go again! Attacking class and respect. Tsk! Tsk!

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

I simply pointed out why there is no such thing.

Unitarianism is its own unique religion with its own set doctrines.

Brother, you are all over the place.

 

[Arial]

Brother, you are all over the place.

I am not a brother and I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Arial]

There you go again! Attacking class and respect. Tsk! Tsk!

Ad Hominem

 

[Arial]

So, me and @Runningman identify ourselves this way. You say there is no such thing. Nice!

Perhaps if you read why you would not be responding in a way that has no basis in what was said.

Plus it is Runningman and I not me and Runningman.

 

[David1701]

I believe @Arial probably meant "Biblical Unitarian" which is the name of a Christian denomination and I agree with the bulk majority of what they teach about. Unitarian Christian or Biblical Unitarian are not oxymorons. A Unitarian Christian believes concerning God that the Father is the only True God. What we believe about God is directly stated in the Bible in John 17:3 and other places.

Good luck finding any statement that says the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead. Trinitarians call this an "incomprehensible mystery."

The Father is the only true God, as is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons constitute the one God.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal "I AM" of the OT; he is God manifest in the flesh; he is Emmanuel (God with us); as Timothy testified, he is Lord and God; he is the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, as Isaiah says, etc, etc..

The Lord Jesus Christ calls the Holy Spirit "He" (He will lead you into all truth, etc.), which in only used of a person. The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come.", etc..

 

[Runningman]

The Father is the only true God, as is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons constitute the one God.

You just contradicted yourself. The person in your Trinity known as the Father is the only true God. Basic English grammar and common sense means that the other persons are not God.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal "I AM" of the OT; he is God manifest in the flesh; he is Emmanuel (God with us); as Timothy testified, he is Lord and God; he is the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, as Isaiah says, etc, etc..

How is that when Scripture says he isn't? The God of Abraham is the I AM, but Jesus is His Son.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus

Exodus 3
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Lord Jesus Christ calls the Holy Spirit "He" (He will lead you into all truth, etc.), which in only used of a person. The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come.", etc..

Whoever said the Holy Spirit is another person in addition to the Father who is God?

 

[Carbon]

You just contradicted yourself. The person in your Trinity known as the Father is the only true God. Basic English grammar and common sense means that the other persons are not God.

You and some others bring this passage to mind, when you just can’t see important truths.


Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.” Matt 13:14.


Repent

 

[Runningman]

You and some others bring this passage to mind, when you just can’t see important truths.


Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.” Matt 13:14.


Repent

Which sin do you charge me with?

 

[Carbon]

Which sin do you charge me with?

Your denial of an essential Christian doctrine. You deny the Son of God.