Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[JesusFan]

God formed Jesus's spirit; God was pleased to have the fullness of His Deity dwell in His Firstborn. So it that union the Son is the imprint of the Fathers very being and He and the Father are one. In that context He is God. That's not another formed Deity and it did take place. Jesus's spirit is not deity. The Son who was, His spirit, descended into the body that was prepared for Him. He did not have the spirit of a man. The Father, who is Deity, was living in Him as we read. The Fathers works He performed testify to that oneness. The eternal life found in Christ is the Father.

So are you the a unitarian, or into arianism?

 

[JesusFan]

He is the image of the invisible God. He is not the invisible God.
He is Firstborn in the creation and resurrection and has the preeminence in both events.
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him by the will of another who defined His being.
God did make all things by/through and FOR Him.

Jesus is also the Firstborn from the dead. (First to rise from the dead) Hello?

The Father has glorified His Son with oneness and Sovereign authority.

Strong's Greek: 4416. πρωτότοκος (prototokos) -- Firstborn

The Father did send and give His Son so man may not perish.

Nonsense, He who loves the Son is loved by the Father and to believe in His Son and bow down to His Christ is commanded by God. Obeying God is not sin.

God gave -why the need and note who the command is coming from?
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

God gave Does Yahweh need to receive authority from any other? His Son did receive from His God and Father.
Psalm 2
Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.

The Son of Man returning with the clouds of heaven just as Jesus stated at His trial -2nd coming

Daniel 7
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Jesus calls His Father the only true God.

You did not read this from HIM.
This is eternal life that they know us the only true God.

So you are a JW?

 

[JesusFan]

There is no contradiction. In the event of the creation Jesus is the First of the Fathers works. Before all other things. All other things were created through Him.
Jesus is the Fathers oldest child. He is begotten and is a Son.

So He was not eternally God?

 

[JesusFan]

You don't get to set terms. Clearly Jesus is not before the Father. So you made a exception to He is before all things.

So did I.

Did God make Jesus first of all creation, then had Jesus make all of the rest?

 

[Paul]

So you see Him as a JW dos? First created, a god, but not the God?

I do see Him as Gods Firstborn. God's oldest child with a beginning, (His spirit), at some point in history before the world began. The Deity that was pleased to dwell in Him was gifted and is the Father's who is unbegotten. He is begotten and is the first of the Fathers works. His person is the only exception to everything God created was created through Him. He is the beginning of the creation of God.
But to this question, "Is He God" its a context based answer.
He never dies
Yes, He is all that that Father is
No, He has always been the Son.

In addition , I pray to and worship My Lord and that as far back as my memory goes.. JW's do not

I not up on all that JW's believe but I thought they believed Jesus was the arch angel Michael.

 

[Paul]

Did God make Jesus first of all creation, then had Jesus make all of the rest?

see post 145 -but God made through/by/for Jesus.

 

[JesusFan]

I do see Him as Gods Firstborn. God's oldest child with a beginning, (His spirit), at some point in history before the world began. The Deity that was pleased to dwell in Him was gifted and is the Father's who is unbegotten. He is begotten and is the first of the Fathers works. His person is the only exception to everything God created was created through Him. He is the beginning of the creation of God.
But to this question, "Is He God" its a context based answer.
He never dies
Yes, He is all that that Father is
No, He has always been the Son.

In addition , I pray to and worship My Lord and that as far back as my memory goes.. JW's do not

I not up on all that JW's believe but I thought they believed Jesus was the arch angel Michael.

So you though so see that Jesus was not God eternally, had a creation date?

 

[JesusFan]

see post 145 -but God made through/by/for Jesus.

So to you Jesus is Not God?

 

[Paul]

So to you Jesus is Not God?

He is all that the Father is for in Him the Father, who is Deity, lives in Him in all His fullness and they are one. This glory of oneness was gifted to Him by the Father. No, He is not the true God.

The Father does whatever He is pleased to do.
Though heaven and earth move at the command of the Son even so He abides within the framework of His Fathers will. He will remain at the Fathers side until His enemies are made His footstool, and He will raise us up on the last day as that is His Fathers will.

 

[Josheb]

You don't get to set terms. Clearly Jesus is not before the Father. So you made a exception to He is before all things.

So did I.

I do get to ask questions with an expectation they'll be topically answered. I also get to point out any obfuscation when it occurs.

Are the five points of Post 128 all that Jesus is?

 

[Paul]

No one questions your ability to parrot scripture. It is your understanding of what you parrot that is being called into question. It's your religious doctrinally biased learning that is being called into question. You've just quoted a few different verses. Good for you. Now reason through what God has revealed to us.

• Jesus is before all created things.
• Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.
• The Father existed prior to creation (which is really irrelevant to this conversation because we're discussing the Son).
• Jesus was begotten of the Father (which isn't actually scripture because the Greek used is "monogenous").
• Jesus was genesised solely by God before all things.

That is what you've just posted.

Are those five bullet points ALL he is?

Please answer the question asked. Please do not avoid answering the question asked. Please do not obfuscate in any way. ALL that is being asked of you at this point is are those five points all that is Jesus. I expect a simple yes or no answer, but you can add any commentary you think relevant as long as the question asked is actually answered and you keep commentary relevant to your answer.

Are those five points all that Jesus is?

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.
the Son is not before Himself. I hold His spirit was formed by the Father as the First of Fathers works.
Firstborn or First begotten is the correct meaning. What isn't found is eternally begotten.
What is your dictionary meaning of this word as its not found? "genesised" He was in God's plan of salvation before the world began but all things were created for Him which speaks of another.

Church -Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made. (I agree in part)

Strong's Greek: 3439. μονογενής (monogenés) -- Only begotten, unique, one and only

 

[Arial]

He is the image of the invisible God. He is not the invisible God.

From Topical Lexicon---The Scope of 1504 eikōn (image)

Christ, the Perfect Image

Colossians 1:15 declares, “The Son is the image of the invisible God.” Likewise, 2 Corinthians 4:4 identifies “the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” Jesus is not merely God-like; He is God made visible, the exact and final revelation by which every other image is tested.

When trying to find what the Bible means by a given word, one cannot go to the dictionary and count on that to do the job. We have access to Greek and Hebrew analysis, Bible Lexicons, and Bible Dictionaries. That is where we need to look. The Bible has a uniqueness of language usage and that is not always found in transactions into English but becomes clear from the original language.

He is Firstborn in the creation and resurrection and has the preeminence in both events.

The text states that he was before all things. Is there something before God? It says he is preeminent in everything. As to the resurrection, he is the first of many to follow to be resurrected.

Jesus is also the Firstborn from the dead. (First to rise from the dead) Hello?

Also covered in my post. You simply jumped the gun in responding.

The Father has glorified His Son with oneness and Sovereign authority.

See what glorification means in 1 Cor 15 and Rev 21. But here you say God turned his sovereignty over to another, and a created being at that. Does that sound right?

Strong's Greek: 4416. πρωτότοκος (prototokos) -- Firstborn

There is no questin that prototokos is translated "firstborn". The question is what does the Bible mean by firstborn in that passage. If you use the full counsel of God, and let scripture interpret scripture, as is the correct Protestant way, (sola scriptura) and consider all the places where Script createdure tells us and shows us that this babe born in Bethlehem will be Emanuel, God with us, and that he is God, then "firstborn" in this case does not mean first to be born (in the sense of created by God) than it meant Isaace was Abraham's oldes son when he was called Abraham's firstborn. In the case of Jesus being the firstborn of all creation it means preeminent---the beginning. (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God----" And the Word became flesh and walked among us.") Or we can go to Rev. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."

The Father did send and give His Son so man may not perish.

Where did he send him from?

Nonsense, He who loves the Son is loved by the Father and to believe in His Son and bow down to His Christ is commanded by God. Obeying God is not sin.

You can't have it both ways by playing games with words. If God tells humans and angels to worship Jesus, and Jesus is not God but something God made (created) he would be telling them to worship an idol---something other than himself. This is why we need to be very careful with our theology and our statements in handling the very word of God. We need to double check what we declare to be true and make sure it is not producing teachings that are antithetical to God.

God gave -why the need and note who the command is coming from?
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

If God created Jesus, then the above passage would be God crowning a creature as God in his place. Since obviously such a thing would never happen, the above must refer to God accepting the work of propitiation that Jesus did, crowning him as King after his mission as one of us was complete. Making him the only mediator between God and man, and the command to all humans, believers and unbelievers alike, to worship him.

 

[Josheb]

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.
the Son is not before Himself. I hold His spirit was formed by the Father as the First of Fathers works.
Firstborn or First begotten is the correct meaning. What isn't found is eternally begotten.
What is your dictionary meaning of this word as its not found? "genesised" He was in God's plan of salvation before the world began but all things were created for Him which speaks of another.

Church -Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made. (I agree in part)

Strong's Greek: 3439. μονογενής (monogenés) -- Only begotten, unique, one and only

Still not an answer to my question. I'll address the matter of monogenous once I read the answer to my earlier question.

Are the five points found in Post 128 all that Jesus is? Do those five points cover all that is Jesus? Just say "yes" or "no." Move the conversation forward. I'll work with either answer.

 

[JesusFan]

He is all that the Father is for in Him the Father, who is Deity, lives in Him in all His fullness and they are one. This glory of oneness was gifted to Him by the Father. No, He is not the true God.

The Father does whatever He is pleased to do.
Though heaven and earth move at the command of the Son even so He abides within the framework of His Fathers will. He will remain at the Fathers side until His enemies are made His footstool, and He will raise us up on the last day as that is His Fathers will.

So he was "adopted" intoi the trinity then?

 

[JesusFan]

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.
the Son is not before Himself. I hold His spirit was formed by the Father as the First of Fathers works.
Firstborn or First begotten is the correct meaning. What isn't found is eternally begotten.
What is your dictionary meaning of this word as its not found? "genesised" He was in God's plan of salvation before the world began but all things were created for Him which speaks of another.

Church -Begotten of the Father alone before all things but not made. (I agree in part)

Strong's Greek: 3439. μονογενής (monogenés) -- Only begotten, unique, one and only

Was there even in time when Jesus did not exist then?

 

[JesusFan]

From Topical Lexicon---The Scope of 1504 eikōn (image)

Christ, the Perfect Image

Colossians 1:15 declares, “The Son is the image of the invisible God.” Likewise, 2 Corinthians 4:4 identifies “the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” Jesus is not merely God-like; He is God made visible, the exact and final revelation by which every other image is tested.

When trying to find what the Bible means by a given word, one cannot go to the dictionary and count on that to do the job. We have access to Greek and Hebrew analysis, Bible Lexicons, and Bible Dictionaries. That is where we need to look. The Bible has a uniqueness of language usage and that is not always found in transactions into English but becomes clear from the original language.

The text states that he was before all things. Is there something before God? It says he is preeminent in everything. As to the resurrection, he is the first of many to follow to be resurrected.

Also covered in my post. You simply jumped the gun in responding.

See what glorification means in 1 Cor 15 and Rev 21. But here you say God turned his sovereignty over to another, and a created being at that. Does that sound right?

There is no questin that prototokos is translated "firstborn". The question is what does the Bible mean by firstborn in that passage. If you use the full counsel of God, and let scripture interpret scripture, as is the correct Protestant way, (sola scriptura) and consider all the places where Script createdure tells us and shows us that this babe born in Bethlehem will be Emanuel, God with us, and that he is God, then "firstborn" in this case does not mean first to be born (in the sense of created by God) than it meant Isaace was Abraham's oldes son when he was called Abraham's firstborn. In the case of Jesus being the firstborn of all creation it means preeminent---the beginning. (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God----" And the Word became flesh and walked among us.") Or we can go to Rev. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."

Where did he send him from?

You can't have it both ways by playing games with words. If God tells humans and angels to worship Jesus, and Jesus is not God but something God made (created) he would be telling them to worship an idol---something other than himself. This is why we need to be very careful with our theology and our statements in handling the very word of God. We need to double check what we declare to be true and make sure it is not producing teachings that are antithetical to God.

If God created Jesus, then the above passage would be God crowning a creature as God in his place. Since obviously such a thing would never happen, the above must refer to God accepting the work of propitiation that Jesus did, crowning him as King after his mission as one of us was complete. Making him the only mediator between God and man, and the command to all humans, believers and unbelievers alike, to worship him.

His Jesus is one of the Cults, not the One of either Bible nor history, still cannot decide if holds to adoptionism, arianism, or unitarian