Jesus was never prayed to once in the Bible

[Runningman]

Your denial of an essential Christian doctrine. You deny the Son of God.

I have done neither. Where did I do that according to you?

 

[grace2]

Your denial of an essential Christian doctrine. You deny the Son of God.

So you are charging all non-trins according to your judgment.

The fact is the exact opposite, friend.

You are the ones who are denying everything that Jesus claims.

 

[Runningman]

So you are charging all non-trins according to your judgment.

The fact is the exact opposite, friend.

You are the ones who are denying everything that Jesus claims.

Yes, it's telling when the grace they afford to their constituents is not the same for their debate opponents.

 

[Mr GLee]

The conversation is NOT about whether a doctrine is true or not! It is about Christianity being the only religion that has the Trinity doctrine.

It is not false. You are either deliberately not understanding what is being said in order to not actually address or accept what is said, or the problem is in comprehension. The Trinity is unique to Christianity. If that uniqueness is removed, what results has no legitimate claim to being Christian. They are basing their Christianity on something else. A Unitarian has the same belief regarding who Jesus is as to His person as the Muslim religion. Why not call yourself a Unitarian Muslim and add to that the belief that yeah, He did die for the forgiveness of my sins? Well whoops again. They don't believe He died for the forgiveness of sins so now you have still another oxymoron.

Unitarianism is its own unique religion with its own set doctrines.

It wasn't me who brought it up. It was @Papa Smurf who asked the question of you and @Soldier of Christ1516 about what were a Unitarian and Biblical Unitarian. I simply pointed out why there is no such thing.

They have already been given. Saying no, that is talking to Jesus not praying to Him, does not mean they weren't given.

That does not change the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is exclusive to Christianity! Therefore, if that doctrine is absent in a religion, it falls outside of Christianity. Apostate from the Christian religion.

What exactly is it that makes you a Christian?

One God working as two . Let there be and it was good God .

The dynamic dual

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Hello @Runningman and @Soldier of Christ1516, you two refer to yourselves as either a "Christian Unitarian" or a "Biblical Unitarian" (which, sadly, are two titles that I would never give to any of the Unitarians that I know personally).

I have a few questions for you about what you believe (as "Christian" and/or "Biblical" Unitarians), starting with what you believe to be true (and false) about Jesus (who you believe He was/is, is He from everlasting or was He created, what does He have to do with our salvation, if anything, and several other things like that).

I do believe this deserves its own thread. In my view, the 2 terms are synonymous: "Christian Unitarian" or a "Biblical Unitarian." One term just emphasizes a secondary point. The main point is the rejection of the 4th century manmade inherently contradictory doctrine of 3-is-1-ism.

There is only one Creator, Jesus' God. Ergo, Jesus is a created being - as all sons are. Definition. Regarding his role in salvation, have you read my analogy about drowning in the open ocean? It explains it very well.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

The dynamic dual

Dynamic Duo.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

I am not a brother and I have no idea what you mean.

Well, there's your first mistake. We are all brothers and sisters, descendants of Adam and Noah.

Being all over the place means you say one thing in one post but in another post you say something entirely different. My sense is your petty grievance of us rejecting your IDOL causes you to "have no idea." Pick one:

A. There is no such thing (a unitarianism).​

B. Unitarianism is its own unique religion with its own set doctrines.​

​

Either way you are STILL wrong. Yes, there is a separate religion with capital-U but that I not what I'm talking about. If you weren't so automatically hostile we write, you would not feel so obligated to pontificate slander and bear false witness.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Ad Hominem

Pointing out your Ad Hominem is not an Ad Hominem.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Plus it is Runningman and I not me and Runningman.

Nope. Even trying to be a Nazi police, you are wrong. Take out Runningman sentence. "Me identifying myself (this way is something you object to)."

Not a lot of grace in your posts, my friend and brother. I will pray for you.

 

[Carbon]

God in 3 persons... blessed Trinity.

Amen!

 

[David1701]

You just contradicted yourself. The person in your Trinity known as the Father is the only true God. Basic English grammar and common sense means that the other persons are not God.

God is not subject to our "common sense"! He is infinitely above what we can comprehend.

As far as English grammar goes, that is completely irrelevant, since the Bible was not written in English. In any case, there are zero grammatical reasons why God cannot be a compound unity; in fact, one of the famous OT passages includes a Hebrew word that means exactly that.

Human analogies never really work properly, because there is no analogue to God; but, take a three leafed clover: each leaf is distinct from the other two (although the same in essence), but all three are part of the one clover plant.

How is that when Scripture says he isn't? The God of Abraham is the I AM, but Jesus is His Son.


Acts 3

13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus


Exodus 3

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM.

Whoever said the Holy Spirit is another person in addition to the Father who is God?

The Bible and all Christians say that.

 

[Arial]

Human analogies never really work properly, because there is no analogue to God; but, take a three leafed clover: each leaf is distinct from the other two (although the same in essence), but all three are part of the one clover plant.

Right. And if you held up any one of the single leaves and asked a botanist what it was, he would say clover.

 

[Runningman]

God is not subject to our "common sense"! He is infinitely above what we can comprehend.

Jesus prayed that in eternal life we may know the Father, the only true God, and himself. So what you said isn't what Scripture says.

John 17
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

As far as English grammar goes, that is completely irrelevant, since the Bible was not written in English. In any case, there are zero grammatical reasons why God cannot be a compound unity; in fact, one of the famous OT passages includes a Hebrew word that means exactly that.

Thank you for admitting that your argument is confined to that of grammatical construct. Where does the Bible say what you are proposing then?

Human analogies never really work properly, because there is no analogue to God; but, take a three leafed clover: each leaf is distinct from the other two (although the same in essence), but all three are part of the one clover plant.

If human analogies don't work properly then why are you using them?

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM.


The Bible and all Christians say that.

Jesus didn't say he is the I AM. Check out Acts 3:13 and Exodus 3:14,15 where the God of Abraham is the I AM, but Jesus is only mentioned as His Son or servant. I recommend we take a look at the context of John 8 to understand how Jesus was not claiming deity. Here's a good place to start... in John 8:40, contrary to their accusations, Jesus denied being God, but rather a man who heard the truth from God.

 

[Rella]

Jesus prayed that in eternal life we may know the Father, the only true God, and himself. So what you said isn't what Scripture says.

John 17
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Thank you for admitting that your argument is confined to that of grammatical construct. Where does the Bible say what you are proposing then?


If human analogies don't work properly then why are you using them?


Jesus didn't say he is the I AM. Check out Acts 3:13 and Exodus 3:14,15 where the God of Abraham is the I AM, but Jesus is only mentioned as His Son or servant. I recommend we take a look at the context of John 8 to understand how Jesus was not claiming deity. Here's a good place to start... in John 8:40, contrary to their accusations, Jesus denied being God, but rather a man who heard the truth from God.

Jesus, in response to the Pharisees’ question “Who do you think you are?” said, “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds” (John 8:56–59). The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.
~As Got Questions explains things... that even someone with a IQ of a gnat could understand
If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.” The Greek words translated “was,” in the case of Abraham, and “am,” in the case of Jesus, are quite different. The words chosen by the Spirit make it clear that Abraham was “brought into being,” but Jesus existed eternally (see John 1:1). There is no doubt that the Jews understood what He was saying because they took up stones to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). Such a statement, if not true, was blasphemy and the punishment prescribed by the Mosaic Law was death (Leviticus 24:11–14). But Jesus committed no blasphemy; He was and is God, the second Person of the Godhead, equal to the Father in every way.
~It further goes on with
Jesus used the same phrase “I AM” in seven declarations about Himself. In all seven, He combines I AM with tremendous metaphors which express His saving relationship toward the world. All appear in the book of John. They are I AM the Bread of Life (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51); I AM the Light of the World (John 8:12); I AM the Door of the Sheep (John 10:7, 9); I AM the Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14); I AM the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25); I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6); and I AM the True Vine (John 15:1, 5).

 

[Runningman]

Jesus, in response to the Pharisees’ question “Who do you think you are?” said, “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’

At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds” (John 8:56–59). The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.
~As Got Questions explains things... that even someone with a IQ of a gnat could understand
If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.” The Greek words translated “was,” in the case of Abraham, and “am,” in the case of Jesus, are quite different. The words chosen by the Spirit make it clear that Abraham was “brought into being,” but Jesus existed eternally (see John 1:1). There is no doubt that the Jews understood what He was saying because they took up stones to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). Such a statement, if not true, was blasphemy and the punishment prescribed by the Mosaic Law was death (Leviticus 24:11–14). But Jesus committed no blasphemy; He was and is God, the second Person of the Godhead, equal to the Father in every way.
~It further goes on with
Jesus used the same phrase “I AM” in seven declarations about Himself. In all seven, He combines I AM with tremendous metaphors which express His saving relationship toward the world. All appear in the book of John. They are I AM the Bread of Life (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51); I AM the Light of the World (John 8:12); I AM the Door of the Sheep (John 10:7, 9); I AM the Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14); I AM the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25); I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6); and I AM the True Vine (John 15:1, 5).

Plainly, Jesus never said he is God. So what you're presenting are called theological arguments and you have presented many.

First of all, you shouldn't be using the false accusations of Jesus' enemies as your guide for what you believe is true. Not only is this dangerous because they wanted to misrepresent him, slander him, and ultimately find a reason to kill him, but Christians follow what the teachings of Jesus are.

Secondly, when Jesus said "I AM" he didn't say "I am the I AM" so don't read into it. Reading into a text is called eisegesis. Take a look at what Acts 3:13 and Exodus 3:14,15 says. These say that Jesus is the Son or servant of the God of Abraham and that that God of Abraham is YHWH, the I AM, etc. These verses are great for quickly demonstrating that, in Scripture, Jesus isn't the I AM.

Now that we know that your interpretation of this is contradicted by Scripture, we can look at what Jesus was talking about in it's proper context and application. Jesus was saying that before Abraham he is the man. These very words for I AM (ego eimi) are found elsewhere in the Greek New Testament as "I am the man" and John 8:40 says Jesus a man.

So how was just a man before Abraham? Well, he wasn't. He didn't literally exist yet except for in prophecy. It's a great example of how Jesus stated he existed in God's plan and foreknowledge.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Speaking to Jesus does not equal prayer to Jesus. People speak to one another all of the Bible and no one ever makes a doctrine out of it being prayer. Point is, the word prayer is never used in association with speaking to Jesus. It's only reserved for God.

Acts 7
59 They went on stoning Stephen as he (ἐπικαλέω/epikaleomai) "called on" the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen, as he was being stoned, "talked" to the Lord Jesus (who was in Heaven at that time) in the very same way that the Lord Jesus "prayed" to His Father while He was still living among us on Earth .. e.g. Matthew 26:39. IOW, Stephen didn't just "talk" to the Lord, he ἐπικαλέω/"called on"/"made an appeal or petition to" Him ... in prayer!

prayer /prâr/

noun​

1. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.
   "belief in the power of prayer."
3. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving.
   "One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer." ~The American Heritage® Dictionary, 5th Edition

While I don't mind having reasonable discussions about things like this with you, and while I certainly understand your desire to see your presuppositional beliefs stand as true, the idea that Stephen, while in the throes of death, was not "praying" to the Lord Jesus (who was in Heaven standing next to His Father at that time) is neither a reasonable nor rational conclusion to make (as ἐπικαλέω in v59 makes clear for us too). It is, instead, silly and ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the dilemma that you face here as a non-Trinitarian, one that I don't as a Trinitarian. Still, attempting to bend the clear meaning of the Biblical text to fit a particular presupposition (whatever the presupposition may be) only weakens the argument that one is attempting to make (and quite frankly, if doing something like this is required to prove a presupposition, maybe it's time to revisit the presupposition and figure out why )!

BTW, you are correct, people talked to one another throughout the Bible and never called it prayer, just like those who met the Lord Jesus while He lived among us on Earth didn't pray to Him, rather, they talked with Him .. but now that He is in Heaven, we pray to Him, just like we pray to His Father (which is exactly what Stephen did via the Holy Spirit in v59-60).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - in the end, what matters in this case is that Stephen (while in the throes of dying, and then again, as he died .. Acts 7:59-60) "asked" the Lord Jesus (instead of His Father) to "receive his spirit", even though Stephen, who was filled with the Holy Spirit at the time, was aware that the Father was right there beside Him in Heaven.

 

[Runningman]

Acts 7
59 They went on stoning Stephen as he (ἐπικαλέω/epikaleomai) "called on" the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen, as he was being stoned, "talked" to the Lord Jesus (who was in Heaven at that time) in the very same way that the Lord Jesus "prayed" to His Father while He was still living among us on Earth .. e.g. Matthew 26:39. IOW, Stephen didn't just "talk" to the Lord, he ἐπικαλέω/"called on"/"made an appeal or petition to" Him ... in prayer!

prayer /prâr/

noun​

1. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.
   "belief in the power of prayer."
3. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving.
   "One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer." ~The American Heritage® Dictionary, 5th Edition

While I don't mind having reasonable discussions about things like this with you, and while I certainly understand your desire to see your presuppositional beliefs stand as true, the idea that Stephen, while in the throes of death, was not "praying" to the Lord Jesus (who was in Heaven standing next to His Father at that time) is neither a reasonable nor rational conclusion to make (as ἐπικαλέω in v59 makes clear for us too). It is, instead, silly and ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the dilemma that you face here as a non-Trinitarian, one that I don't as a Trinitarian. Still, attempting to bend the clear meaning of the Biblical text to fit a particular presupposition (whatever the presupposition may be) only weakens the argument that one is attempting to make (and quite frankly, if doing something like this is required to prove a presupposition, maybe it's time to revisit the presupposition and figure out why )!

BTW, you are correct, people talked to one another throughout the Bible and never called it prayer, just like those who met the Lord Jesus while He lived among us on Earth didn't pray to Him, rather, they talked with Him .. but now that He is in Heaven, we pray to Him, just like we pray to His Father (which is exactly what Stephen did via the Holy Spirit in v59-60).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - in the end, what matters in this case is that Stephen (while in the throes of dying, and then again, as he died .. Acts 7:59-60) "asked" the Lord Jesus (instead of His Father) to "receive his spirit", even though Stephen, who was filled with the Holy Spirit at the time, was aware that the Father was right there beside Him in Heaven.

Prayer is a different word in Scripture than appeal, called on, spoke to, etc. The words you are saying are prayer in Acts 7 are used repeatedly through the New Testament and they aren’t prayers. You and I are also talking and this isn’t a prayer.

So what you’re trying to do is make speaking to Jesus a prayer, but speaking to other people is not a prayer. See the inconsistency and invalidity of your argument?

What would help you is if there were actually any examples of Jesus being prayed to in the Bible or if it was something he or others taught.

Jesus and the disciples taught nothing about praying to Jesus. It actually doesn’t exist. It means Jesus isn’t God.

So what Jesus taught about prayer is in Matthew 6:6-9and it’s about praying to the Father only. The Father is the only true God.

 

[Fred]

Prayer is a different word in Scripture than appeal, called on, spoke to, etc. The words you are saying are prayer in Acts 7 are used repeatedly through the New Testament and they aren’t prayers.

The above is a ridiculous argument.

The same Greek word is used in Psalm 116:4 (114:4 in the Septuagint) in reference to prayer to YHWH.

You and I are also talking and this isn’t a prayer.

Totally different context. Get a clue. Stephen's final words of his life were addressed to the Lord Jesus in heaven.
Don't put yourself in the same category as the Lord Jesus as being prayed to in order to receive Stephen's spirit.

 

[Runningman]

The same Greek word is used in Psalm 116:4 (114:4 in the Septuagint) in reference to prayer to YHWH.

It's used in reference to humans, too, such as the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:54-60) and all over the New Testament and Septuagint. Too many examples to list.

Totally different context. Get a clue. Stephen's final words of his life were addressed to the Lord Jesus in heaven.
Don't put yourself in the same category as the Lord Jesus as being prayed to in order to receive Stephen's spirit.

Speaking to a human in heaven is not prayer according to scripture. Catholics believe that and it's idolatry. Are you a Roman Catholic? That would at least explain your confusion.

How embarrassing for you. Still nothing about Jesus being prayed to in all of Scripture.

 

[Fred]

It's used in reference to humans, too, such as the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:54-60) and all over the New Testament and septuagint.

No kidding.

Speaking to someone in heaven prayer according to scripture.

Right! Thanks for your admission.
This proves Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer!

How embarrassing for you.

See above and get a mirror.

Still nothing about Jesus being prayed to in all of Scripture.

You just contradicted what you previously affirmed.
Classic!