Jesus was never prayed to once in the Bible

[Papa Smurf]

Hello @Runningman and @Soldier of Christ1516, you two refer to yourselves as either a "Christian Unitarian" or a "Biblical Unitarian" (which, sadly, are two titles that I would never give to any of the Unitarians that I know personally).

I have a few questions for you about what you believe (as "Christian" and/or "Biblical" Unitarians), starting with what you believe to be true (and false) about Jesus (who you believe He was/is, is He from everlasting or was He created, what does He have to do with our salvation, if anything, and several other things like that).

First off though, @Runningman, is it ok with you to sidestep addressing your OP (for a few posts) to take a quick look into this (what I assume to be conservative Unitarianism, that is), or would you prefer that I didn't do so here I could start a separate thread instead, of course (if talking about this here is not ok with you), once I've figure out if it's ok for me to do so or not (I post on a couple of other Christian forums where it would not be ok, just FYI).

Thanks

--Papa Smurf

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

I believe that it does so clearly

I've learned to distrust the use of clearly to mean "read into" in application. It certainly does not mean explicit. For instance, I wicked good place to put praying to Jesus would be how he taught us to pray.

Because Jesus did not teach the trinity, it follows that he did not teach us to pray to the trinity but only to the one God of Scripture. That's clear.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

An interesting side discussion that could also be made here (well, at least by Trinitarians, anyway) is why Stephen chose to pray to Jesus instead of to His Father at that time (I believe that he perhaps did so for the same reason that the Apostle Peter chose to baptize in the Name of the Lord Jesus in Acts, instead of using the Trinitarian formula that was laid down for him & us by the Lord in Matthew 28:19).

A great topic for another thread!

I believe it has to do with relationship. The queen of England certainly has more authority than my wife. Yet, in a room with the both of them, I'd probably ask my wife to get me a cup of coffee.

One obvious anti-trinitarian aspect to the martyr of St Steven is the absence of the so-called 3rd person, who has no name.

 

[Mr GLee]

Whatever that means.

Jesus already died.

Christ cannot die . He is eternal God without beginning of Spirit life or end thereof.

The Son of man born again Jesus died . . was buried his flesh returned to the dust. From where the covering of the spirit was formed .

Christ works in all sons of God born again believers to both will (let there be) and provide power to perform it to Christ's good pleasure .

2 Corinthians 5:16King James Version16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings .He came to destroy all kings of dying mankind

 

[Fred]

Christ cannot die

Christ died (1 Corinthians 15:3).

 

[Mr GLee]

Christ died (1 Corinthians 15:3).

Christ gave his invisible Spirit life. Poured it out on the dying flesh of the Son of man, Jesus

By his wounds or stripes from the father we are healed .

The Son of man sufferer unto death as the Father stuck him with the letter of the law (death). Not dead never to rise to new born again life.

All die not receiving the promise of a new incorruptible body . (no reincarnation)

Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Living sacrifice, pouring out Spirit life in jeapordy of his own mighty Spirit life (not dead)

Christ defines dead "dead asleep"

He wept at there unbelief (no faith that by which they could believe )

Jesus the Son of man the most misunderstood person that ever walked on water

John 11:34-36King James Version And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. Jesus wept.

Luke 8:51-53King James Version And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.


The gospel raises the dead in there trespass and sin. The wake up call he last day under the Sun. Wake up sleepy heads, time to break the fast.

Sons of God(Christians) rise and receive a body that will not grow old and die.

 

[Runningman]

It’s so obvious to those not indoctrinated.

Please point to a single verse that says Jesus was either prayed to or someone taught about prayer to Jesus. Perhaps this exercise will assist in your unindoctrination.

 

[Runningman]

Hello Runningman, as far as no one praying to the Lord Jesus in the Bible goes, the following verses have surely been offered, but just in case they have not, here you go. This part of the passage concerns the stoning and martyrdom of Stephen after he was dragged before the Sanhedrin to testify about the Lord Jesus (and is, in part, the reaction to his testimony by the Sanhedrin).

Acts 8​

54 When they [the Sanhedrin Council] heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at Stephen. ​

55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; ​

56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” ​

57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. ​

58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. ​

59 They went on stoning Stephen as he ~called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”~ ​

60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep. ​

So, interestingly, here we have both the Father and the risen/ascended Lord Jesus together in Heaven, with Stephen choosing to pray ~to the Lord Jesus~ to receive his spirit when he was dying (as well praying to the Lord Jesus and asking Him to forgive those who were murdering him as he died).

Again, this is basically a blind post, so if this has already been discussed in your thread, I apologize (I just didn't have time to read through the entire thread).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - here's another short verse just for good measure, this time from the Apostle John (with more to come later, Dv).

Revelation 22​

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” ~Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.~​

.

Speaking to Jesus does not equal prayer to Jesus. People speak to one another all of the Bible and no one ever makes a doctrine out of it being prayer. Point is, the word prayer is never used in association with speaking to Jesus. It's only reserved for God.

Begin with Jesus' teachings. In Matthew 6:6-9, Jesus taught Christians to only pray to the Father.

 

[Runningman]

Hello @Runningman and @Soldier of Christ1516, you two refer to yourselves as either a "Christian Unitarian" or a "Biblical Unitarian" (which, sadly, are two titles that I would never give to any of the Unitarians that I know personally).

Hello there. I would think they would give these titles to themselves because the title Christian has unfortunately been conflated with Trinitarianism and appropriate titles are necessary to clarify this now. Otherwise, people make assumptions and often get the wrong ideas.

I have a few questions for you about what you believe (as "Christian" and/or "Biblical" Unitarians), starting with what you believe to be true (and false) about Jesus (who you believe He was/is, is He from everlasting or was He created, what does He have to do with our salvation, if anything, and several other things like that).

First off though, @Runningman, is it ok with you to sidestep addressing your OP (for a few posts) to take a quick look into this (what I assume to be conservative Unitarianism, that is), or would you prefer that I didn't do so here I could start a separate thread instead, of course (if talking about this here is not ok with you), once I've figure out if it's ok for me to do so or not (I post on a couple of other Christian forums where it would not be ok, just FYI).

Thanks

--Papa Smurf

It's oaky to sidestep the OP at this point, but to answer some of your general questions about who Jesus is, then I believe Jesus is a man who God chose to be His servant, anointed and empowered. He was made Lord of the church and the Messiah. Yes Jesus was created. For our salvation he is our sin sacrifice. Please feel free to ask me anything specific or for clarification.

note: I maybe come here once a week but I'll check in a few times today.

 

[Runningman]

John 17:3
​

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only ​

true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. ​

​

That still does not mean the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son.


The Son is God.
The Father is God.

But the Son is God having two natures in union.
God and Soul.

The Father is solely God. No other nature in union.
The Father, as is, alone, is imperceivable to man.
The Father transcends human perception.

The Son uses His human nature to take what he uniquely knows about God, and translate God to man in human terms.

The Father as God does no such thing.
He works through the Son to make Himself known.
That is why Jesus said...

"No one comes to the Father except through me. "​

The Son is God actively making the Father knowable to man by interpreting what we can not perceive about God,
and interpreting God to us in human terms.

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God
and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
[He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen;
He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].​

grace and peace ..............

​

You're just repeating the creed it seems and it doesn't match what Jesus or anyone else were going around teaching people. I am going to have to go with what Jesus taught instead.

 

[Carbon]

Christ died (1 Corinthians 15:3).

Soldier on brother!

 

[Arial]

Hello there. I would think they would give these titles to themselves because the title Christian has unfortunately been conflated with Trinitarianism and appropriate titles are necessary to clarify this now. Otherwise, people make assumptions and often get the wrong ideas.

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine and it is exclusive to Christianity. No other religion claims the Trinity. So if someone says they are Christian and also denies the Trinity, and in particular the deity of Christ, they are not Christian but something else. They merely borrow what they want to for their own benefit, and in order to falsely claim they are a Christian, from the Christian religion. In other words---deceivers from day one. They could just as ludicrously claim to be an Islamic Christian, or a Buddist Christian, or a New Age Christian or a Christian Scientist, or a JW Christian.

A Unitarian Christian or Biblical Unitarian are both oxymorons.

 

[Carbon]

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine and it is exclusive to Christianity. No other religion claims the Trinity. So if someone says they are Christian and also denies the Trinity, and in particular the deity of Christ, they are not Christian but something else. They merely borrow what they want to for their own benefit, and in order to falsely claim they are a Christian, from the Christian religion. In other words---deceivers from day one. They could just as ludicrously claim to be an Islamic Christian, or a Buddist Christian, or a New Age Christian or a Christian Scientist, or a JW Christian.

A Unitarian Christian or Biblical Christian are both oxymorons.

Amen!

 

[Runningman]

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine and it is exclusive to Christianity. No other religion claims the Trinity. So if someone says they are Christian and also denies the Trinity, and in particular the deity of Christ, they are not Christian but something else. They merely borrow what they want to for their own benefit, and in order to falsely claim they are a Christian, from the Christian religion. In other words---deceivers from day one. They could just as ludicrously claim to be an Islamic Christian, or a Buddist Christian, or a New Age Christian or a Christian Scientist, or a JW Christian.

A Unitarian Christian or Biblical Christian are both oxymorons.

Exclusive doctrines aren't what gives credibility to a belief, but rather the truthfulness of the doctrine. In Christianity, we have a standard for what we have all (mostly) agreed the truth is and we call it the Bible. So the easy way to find out what is true is to simply compare a claim to what the Bible says. So people are claiming all of these various things, often disagreeing with one another, regarding what they believe the Trinity is. The bulk majority of the claims are not even stated in the Bible.

For example, nothing about praying to Jesus is directly stated, described, or taught in the Bible. For the Trinitarian, that Jesus is demonstrably not God by lack of evidence he was ever prayed to seems to be no problem. Yet what you do is actually go well beyond what is written in the Bible that we hold as authoritative. So since you didn't get the authority from the Bible to say things that are not in the Bible then who gave you this authority? It certainly wasn't God, Jesus, or any of the original disciples who actually followed Jesus, but we are still on where you are getting this from? You go it from creeds and doctrines that people essentially just made up.

 

[Arial]

Speaking to Jesus does not equal prayer to Jesus. People speak to one another all of the Bible and no one ever makes a doctrine out of it being prayer. Point is, the word prayer is never used in association with speaking to Jesus. It's only reserved for God.

Is that like the claim that worshiping Jesus is not worshiping Jesus? On the other hand, is speaking to a dead man doing the forbidden by God command that we are not to speak to or conjure up the dead?

Begin with Jesus' teachings. In Matthew 6:6-9, Jesus taught Christians to only pray to the Father.

There weren't any Christians at the time. Jesus had not yet died and resurrected and ascended. He was teaching Jews how to pray and it was alien to them. They did not address God as Father. It in no way is a valid proof text to say that because He does not say to pray to Himself, it means we are not to pray to the ascended Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Is that like the claim that worshiping Jesus is not worshiping Jesus? On the other hand, is speaking to a dead man doing the forbidden by God command that we are not to speak to or conjure up the dead?

Jesus was dead, but God resurrected him later. Yes you can speak to Jesus in heaven if you wish, perhaps God will deliver the message for you.

There weren't any Christians at the time. Jesus had not yet died and resurrected and ascended. He was teaching Jews how to pray and it was alien to them. They did not address God as Father. It in no way is a valid proof text to say that because He does not say to pray to Himself, it means we are not to pray to the ascended Jesus.

There were Christians at the time, i.e., followers of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are what Christians are. Are you saying Jesus wasn't the Christ at the time? Because for what you said to be true then the people who were following Jesus were not following the Christ, but rather just a man who wasn't ordained and anointed by God. I don't agree with you at all about this.

 

[Arial]

Exclusive doctrines aren't what gives credibility to a belief, but rather the truthfulness of the doctrine.

That is not true. If a religion has a doctrine that no other religion has, that doctrine is exclusive to that religion. The truthfulness of the doctrine has nothing to do with it. The point is not validity but is rather something that is unique from all other religions. Of all religions in the world, only Christianity claims the Trinity doctrine.

In Christianity, we have a standard for what we have all (mostly) agreed the truth is and we call it the Bible.

Yes, that is a doctrine no doubt exclusive to Christianity also. But the doctrine itself is not interpretive of the Bible.

So the easy way to find out what is true is to simply compare a claim to what the Bible says. So people are claiming all of these various things, often disagreeing with one another, regarding what they believe the Trinity is. The bulk majority of the claims are not even stated in the Bible.

That is unresponsive to the subject, veers off into another topic other than the exclusiveness of the doctrine of the Trinity to Christianity. It is irrelevant that there are various beliefs concerning what the Trinity is. And is it you or some other authority who decides that this great bulk of unnamed claims, are stated in the Bible or not? That is a statement that requires specifics in order to evaluate evidence.

For example, nothing about praying to Jesus is directly stated, described, or taught in the Bible.

Are we now evaluating from the standpoint of your beliefs as the standard? Trinitarians believe the Bible does say we can pray to Jesus directly and have given evidence. You deny the evidence but that is not a standard of proof. And you have moved away from the topic of "Christian" being erroneously applied to religions that deny the Trinity. Also known as sleight of hand, or simply lack of focus.

Yet what you do is actually go well beyond what is written in the Bible that we hold as authoritative. So since you didn't get the authority from the Bible to say things that are not in the Bible then who gave you this authority? It certainly wasn't God, Jesus, or any of the original disciples who actually followed Jesus, but we are still on where you are getting this from? You go it from creeds and doctrines that people essentially just made up.

That is your opinion, despite all the evidence given to the contrary. Trinitarians heartily disagree with you. Are you a higher authority than they are? Where do you get your authority from? Go to my post to you in "the elephant named Trinity" to see the evidence. Every single piece of evidence there is directly quoted FROM the Bible.

 

[David1701]

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine and it is exclusive to Christianity. No other religion claims the Trinity. So if someone says they are Christian and also denies the Trinity, and in particular the deity of Christ, they are not Christian but something else. They merely borrow what they want to for their own benefit, and in order to falsely claim they are a Christian, from the Christian religion. In other words---deceivers from day one. They could just as ludicrously claim to be an Islamic Christian, or a Buddist Christian, or a New Age Christian or a Christian Scientist, or a JW Christian.

A Unitarian Christian or Biblical Christian are both oxymorons.

Amen! (Um, except that "Biblical Christian" is not an oxymoron...)

 

[Runningman]

That is not true. If a religion has a doctrine that no other religion has, that doctrine is exclusive to that religion. The truthfulness of the doctrine has nothing to do with it. The point is not validity but is rather something that is unique from all other religions. Of all religions in the world, only Christianity claims the Trinity doctrine.

Exclusive doctrines aren't what gives credibility to a belief, but rather the truthfulness of the doctrine. You are agreeing with what I said and framing it as an argument, but your sleight of hand isn't good enough.

Your original statement of "The Trinity is a Christian doctrine and it is exclusive to Christianity. No other religion claims the Trinity. So if someone says they are Christian and also denies the Trinity, and in particular the deity of Christ, they are not Christian but something else" is false then. Now you are arguing against yourself.

Yes, that is a doctrine no doubt exclusive to Christianity also. But the doctrine itself is not interpretive of the Bible.

Correct.

That is unresponsive to the subject, veers off into another topic other than the exclusiveness of the doctrine of the Trinity to Christianity. It is irrelevant that there are various beliefs concerning what the Trinity is. And is it you or some other authority who decides that this great bulk of unnamed claims, are stated in the Bible or not? That is a statement that requires specifics in order to evaluate evidence.

This is the subject you brought up. You made the claim that the Trinity is a Christian doctrine and I addressed this directly. Please respond to what I said.

Are we now evaluating from the standpoint of your beliefs as the standard? Trinitarians believe the Bible does say we can pray to Jesus directly and have given evidence. You deny the evidence but that is not a standard of proof. And you have moved away from the topic of "Christian" being erroneously applied to religions that deny the Trinity. Also known as sleight of hand, or simply lack of focus.

If you have proof of people praying to Jesus in the Bible I would be glad to see it. No one has found it yet.

That is your opinion, despite all the evidence given to the contrary. Trinitarians heartily disagree with you. Are you a higher authority than they are? Where do you get your authority from? Go to my post to you in "the elephant named Trinity" to see the evidence. Every single piece of evidence there is directly quoted FROM the Bible.

No I am right. You're saying "The Trinity is a Christian doctrine and it is exclusive to Christianity. No other religion claims the Trinity. So if someone says they are Christian and also denies the Trinity, and in particular the deity of Christ, they are not Christian but something else." After that, looking into what the Bible says it doesn't say what you do. Therefore this isn't an opinion. You are conflating Christianity with Trinitarianism. If I don't believe what you do then I am not a Trinitarian and that is correct I am not a Trinitarian, but I am a Christian.

 

[Runningman]

Amen! (Um, except that "Biblical Christian" is not an oxymoron...)

I believe @Arial probably meant "Biblical Unitarian" which is the name of a Christian denomination and I agree with the bulk majority of what they teach about. Unitarian Christian or Biblical Unitarian are not oxymorons. A Unitarian Christian believes concerning God that the Father is the only True God. What we believe about God is directly stated in the Bible in John 17:3 and other places.

Good luck finding any statement that says the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons in one Godhead. Trinitarians call this an "incomprehensible mystery."