Is Total Depravity a required belief?

[Carbon]

I agree that we are totally depraved and cannot save ourselves;

Then why argue against it

that is a description of man's state, but does not entail a category label of Total Depravity which is a theological distinction.

The Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin which leads one to either repent or reject the truth.

Prevenient grace? Not taught in scripture

 

[ReverendRV]

The doctrine? No. Faith in the person and work of Jesus is what is necessary to be saved.

That hits the nail on the head too; but the Knowledge of Sin is necessary, as is our Inability to Work. This is Total Depravity...

Sinfulness AND Inability...

Since Sinfulness and Inability to Merit Salvation are both necessary, Total Depravity is necessary...

 

[Carbon]

I agree total depravity is true, not that Total Depravity in TULIP is true.

I know, anything about Calvinism must be resisted.

Knowledge that we are sinners is necessary to be saved.
1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Are you thinking this verse supports your statement?

Do you really believe the natural man cares about sin?

 

[makesends]

This is ALSO hitting the nail on the head, more is required than this; the knowledge that we're not Saved by Works is needed to be factored in. When this is factored in, Total Depravity rises to the top...

Agreed in principle, but not in actuality —i.e practice(?). That is, the mind is not capable of understanding, even (almost as a pun) within the Doctrine of Total Depravity, how much the "old man" strives against God, and how utterly wicked sin is. It is not necessary to absolutely sound the depths of depravity, nor of love divine, in order for the Gospel to do its work and saving faith to be produced within the person. The SPIRIT of GOD knows.

 

[Carbon]

That's exactly where I'm going...

Okay

Knowing our depravity/Sinfulness is necessary to be Saved...

I disagree brother. But maybe I am misunderstanding you.

I do not think man can know his depravity and how radical it is.

The natural man not only cannot understand how sinful his sin is, but he don’t care.

 

[ReverendRV]

Agreed in principle, but not in actuality —i.e practice(?). That is, the mind is not capable of understanding, even (almost as a pun) within the Doctrine of Total Depravity, how much the "old man" strives against God, and how utterly wicked sin is. It is not necessary to absolutely sound the depths of depravity, nor of love divine, in order for the Gospel to do its work and saving faith to be produced within the person. The SPIRIT of GOD knows.

I'm glad we agree in principle, that's how I Debate. My method is meant to show someone on the other side, that in principle; they are Calvinists...

 

[ReverendRV]

Okay

I disagree brother. But maybe I am misunderstanding you.

I do not think man can know his depravity and how radical it is.

The natural man not only cannot understand how sinful his sin is, but he don’t care.

There's a misunderstanding; you know Jesus Christ came to Save Sinner, of whom you are Chief. If you don't know you were a Sinner, he didn't come for you...

 

[Arial]

That hits the nail on the head too; but the Knowledge of Sin is necessary, as is our Inability to Work. This is Total Depravity...

Sinfulness AND Inability...

Well yes. But I think that knowledge comes with salvation, and the inability part often does not come at all. If one thinks that we are saved to do the works or that those works save, it goes to the insufficiency of Christ. And if one thinks I will do these good works and then Jesus will save me, and if I don't do them, He won't, in which case I would say that does not equal salvation---though it may be a path in that direction. Sinfulness and inability are true, but does one have to know both to be saved? We better hope not. As for over a century man's ability to choose to believe has been the main teaching in our churches. Though most would agree we are sinful and cannot save ourselves.

 

[Carbon]

This is ALSO hitting the nail on the head, more is required than this; the knowledge that we're not Saved by Works is needed to be factored in. When this is factored in, Total Depravity rises to the top...

Brother, anything that happens before regeneration is worthless as far as salvation goes. Some things may be recalled and meditated on after salvation, but not before.

 

[Carbon]

There's a misunderstanding; you know Jesus Christ came to Save Sinner, of whom you are Chief. If you don't know you were a Sinner, he didn't come for you...

I know that now since I was saved. Before I was saved I didn’t not only not know it, but didn’t care.
Prior to regeneration I probably thought “wow, Jesus did that for me,” he’s a great guy, a great god.

After salvation I cast myself at his feet and thank him because I am so underserving. And as life goes on, as the Spirit shows me more and more of my sin, I don’t know what to do….I just can’t believe it, I know the flesh is ready to pop it’s ugly Head, I know more and more that the flesh is truly my enemy. And I know more and more Christ is all I have. And I know more and more of Who will set us free one day.

 

[ReverendRV]

Well yes. But I think that knowledge comes with salvation, and the inability part often does not come at all. If one thinks that we are saved to do the works or that those works save, it goes to the insufficiency of Christ. And if one thinks I will do these good works and then Jesus will save me, and if I don't do them, He won't, in which case I would say that does not equal salvation---though it may be a path in that direction. Sinfulness and inability are true, but does one have to know both to be saved? We better hope not. As for over a century man's ability to choose to believe has been the main teaching in our churches. Though most would agree we are sinful and cannot save ourselves.

That's the way I Debate Sister; I get a lot of Yes's...

I understand; Calvinism isn't required knowledge for us to be Saved. Neither is Arminianism, since that also believes in Total Depravity. @PeanutGallery believes in our total depravity, just not in the Doctrine of Total Depravity (however strange that is). And PG isn't Arminian or Calvinist...

This get closer to my point; believing we were Sinners without Merit, is the belief in our Total depravity...

 

[ReverendRV]

Brother, anything that happens before regeneration is worthless as far as salvation goes. Some things may be recalled and meditated on after salvation, but not before.

I agree; but everything I'm saying presumes God has already Worked in us. You know me, I'm a Calvinist. You should expect I've already factored in God, etc...

 

[Carbon]

I agree; but everything I'm saying presumes God has already Worked in us. You know me, I'm a Calvinist. You should expect I've already factored in God, etc...

My mistake then. Sorry brother

 

[Carbon]

My mistake then. Sorry brother

That’s if your talking regeneration as God already working in us

 

[ReverendRV]

My mistake then. Sorry brother

Hey, I got a Thread stirred up, it was getting slow here

Your turn...

 

[ReverendRV]

That’s if your talking regeneration as God already working in us

I am, I'm a 5-Point Calvinist...

This reminds me of CARM, I always had to remind Calvinists I'm a Calvinist...

Ah, the good old days...

 

[makesends]

Would not the person ask for complete clarification of Total Depravity in order to determine if they are saved?

Conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit,is all that's required. And sInce Conviction is God's WORD TO YOU, then it's also the source of your SAVING FAITH. When you then Repent of your SIN, and cry out for salvation, that's all that's necessary. Then Everything changes, and you're new and clean. "Doctrines" are not required.

There's plenty of time to confuse things with "man's theology" later.

That's exactly where I'm going...

Knowing our depravity/Sinfulness is necessary to be Saved...

The doctrine? No. Faith in the person and work of Jesus is what is necessary to be saved.

While I agree the complete knowledge of almost any doctrine requires omniscience, I don't think the question implies omniscience on Total Depravity to be saved. I assume the question implies some sore of general knowledge on the subject.
We are saved by faith. Faith requires knowledge of something; in other words something to believe. The knowledge of the Total Depravity of man is not IMO part of the knowledge needed by one to be saved.

Aside: You ask 10 Christians everything one must believe to be saved and you will get 9 different answers IMO.

In essence, then, knowledge of our "dying NEED" for Christ.

See —I keep finding myself going back to what is truly basic to the Gospel. I agree that knowledge of certain facts —or rather, belief that certain facts are true— is necessary, but to say that "understanding" of certain facts is necessary, can too easily imply degree of understanding. (lol, or maybe I have those backwards, but I hope you can take my point.)

The most clinically disabled human, to all intents and purposes brain dead, by regeneration via the Spirit of God can KNOW of his desperate need for Christ, without ever having had our details of the Gospel communicated to his senses or reason. And God can make him to understand that GOD provided a way. Nothing technical, but everything real.

The same is true for us. Salvific Faith is generated by the Spirit of God, that knows the breadth and depth of all things. God himself. OUR understanding can't do it. (I do, however, suppose that to the degree that our intellect is capable of working with our regenerated heart, we are taught what is necessary. But be careful that we don't depend on that, rather than on God himself, for 'salvific understanding'. He who lives by the sword, will die by the sword. We will be stretched out next to our own tape measure.)

 

[Carbon]

Total Depravity is our Inability to do anything Good because of our Native Depravity...

I think it goes on. Much deeper than that brother.

 

[makesends]

I think it goes on. Much deeper than that brother.

Well, of course, to include enmity and self-determination and so on. @ReverendRV didn't say otherwise. But there's no way to aptly communicate the depth of the fact.

 

[ReverendRV]

I think it goes on. Much deeper than that brother.

It does...

But because I'm a Fundamentalist, I often keep things basic. This is where most Christians are practically Calvinists; on the Fundamental level, not the critical level. Even @PeanutGallery believes in total depravity...