Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

[Red Baker]

Thanks for the update. I have yet to hear from a friend in Canton, NC. Outside Asheville.

Major problems for the Canton area and beyond. Parts of I-40 is missing due to landside and some people missing.

Asking folks to stay off of the roads ~ schools closed and many businesses.

Hurricane Helene leaves over 100 dead, millions without power in the Southeastern U.S. Here's what we know and what to expect next.

Helene’s trail of destruction and record-breaking floods could rank among the costliest storms in U.S. history.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Red Baker]

The image of God in which Adam was created was in his spirit, not in his flesh. The image of Adam in which his son was born was in his flesh, not in his spirit.

Jim, I never said that Adam and Eve were created in their flesh after the image of God.

We can only know what it means to be created after God's image, by knowing what the new birth is. It is a creation after God's image in wisdom, knowledge and understanding; nothing changes in our flesh; it is all inward, not one thing outwardly, even though it can be seen by outward deeds coming from a new heart/spirit/mind.

Ephesians 4:22-24~"That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Colossians 3:10​

“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”

When our first parents sinned they lost God's image; no longer did they possesses (spiritual) knowledge, understanding and wisdom, and the righteousness in which they were created with. They were not created with sin in their members as we are born with! Your verse you quoted:

John 3:6​

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

"that which is born of the flesh is flesh." Here "the flesh" is the name given to human nature as fallen—it must not be restricted to the body (as in a few passages it is)~but understood (as generally in the New Testament) of the entire human constitution. In affirming, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh," Christ reiterated the basic and unchanging principle—repeated no less than nine times in Genesis 1—that every creature brings forth "after its kind." The quality of the fruit~is determined by the nature of the tree which bears it: an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Man's fallen nature cannot yield that which is sinless, from birth~and neither can it please God without God giving them another nature after his image. No matter how much fallen man may be educated, civilized, or religionized, in his natural state he cannot produce that which is acceptable to the thrice holy God. In order to that he must be born again—a new and sinless nature imparted to him.​

Ephesians 4:22​

“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, (flesh) which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;”

Romans 8:8​

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

"But that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." A new, a spiritual life is communicated, from which the grand moral change in its subject proceeds. This communication of Divine life to the soul is viewed in the New Testament under various figures.​

 

[JIM]

Jim, I never said that Adam and Eve were created in their flesh after the image of God.

We can only know what it means to be created after God's image, by knowing what the new birth is. It is a creation after God's image in wisdom, knowledge and understanding; nothing changes in our flesh; it is all inward, not one thing outwardly, even though it can be seen by outward deeds coming from a new heart/spirit/mind.

Colossians 3:10​

“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”

When our first parents sinned they lost God's image; no longer did they possesses (spiritual) knowledge, understanding and wisdom, and the righteousness in which they were created with. They were not created with sin in their members as we are born with! Your verse you quoted:

John 3:6​

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

"that which is born of the flesh is flesh." Here "the flesh" is the name given to human nature as fallen—it must not be restricted to the body (as in a few passages it is)~but understood (as generally in the New Testament) of the entire human constitution. In affirming, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh," Christ reiterated the basic and unchanging principle—repeated no less than nine times in Genesis 1—that every creature brings forth "after its kind." The quality of the fruit~is determined by the nature of the tree which bears it: an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Man's fallen nature cannot yield that which is sinless, from birth~and neither can it please God without God giving them another nature after his image. No matter how much fallen man may be educated, civilized, or religionized, in his natural state he cannot produce that which is acceptable to the thrice holy God. In order to that he must be born again—a new and sinless nature imparted to him.​

Ephesians 4:22​

“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, (flesh) which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;”

Romans 8:8​

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

"But that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." A new, a spiritual life is communicated, from which the grand moral change in its subject proceeds. This communication of Divine life to the soul is viewed in the New Testament under various figures.​

Red, you are giving me traducianism. That is false. No "flesh" is not the name given to human nature as fallen. First of all, "flesh" as translated is always and only from the Greek word "sarx". It occurs about 150 times in the KJV NT. The meaning in the Greek can range from the flesh or meat of an animal to simply a human being. As it occurs in the NT, it is more often used to mean simply a human being. Often does mean the human being, the sinner.

There is no denying that the natural tendency of human beings is gratify the desires and passions of the physical body. I would point out, something you already know, that the natural tendency does not change in being born again. What does change is that in being born again, in regeneration, the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is given to help the regenerate to fight against the gratifying of such desires and passions as are antithetical to God and God's law.

The spiritual condition of the procreated offspring of man is unaffected by the spiritual condition of the man himself, either before or after being born again. That is a fact. And there is absolutely nothing in scripture that says otherwise. Your explanation of John 3:6 stands in direct opposition to that fact.

I really despise the phrase "fallen man" or "fallen humanity" or "the fall". Such phrases are not found in scripture. It is a construct born out of a particular theological position. John 3:6 is simply the very direct statement that the body of the offspring of man comes from the body of man and the spirit of the offspring of man comes from God -- flesh begets flesh and Spirit begets spirit.

Flesh does not beget spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, you are giving me traducianism. That is false.

Good morning Jim,

The two camps of this thought:

Creationism:
John Calvin
Francis Turretin
Charles Hodge
A.A. Hodge
Louis Berkhof

Augustine (according to Berkhof hesitated to choose)

Traducianism:
Tertullian
Martin Luther
Jonathan Edwards
Ezekiel Hopkins
W.G.T. Shedd
Augustus Strong
Gordon H. Clark

I think each has its own truth, each has its own errors. So many points to consider, before making a judgement on what is true, what is false. I see problems on both sides of the issues. What first needs to be determine is what is the different between soul and spirit of man; plus, does God still create sinless soul, or spirits, ( if there is a different between the two and I believe there is) or is this passed down through the male to the children~which I believe it is~thus Christ's father was God, not through Adam. But this subject needs time to be consider and proven. I think it is in the right thread to consider along with the depravity of man

I do not have time at the moment to even consider the discussion, since we are still dealing with the hurricane mess here, making arrangements for our loved ones and friends to stay with us and use our internet, and power, and provide food, baths, etc. I'm looking at my daughter's mother in law sleeping on my recliner since she's on an oxygen tank and sleeps better semi-vertical. Got to do what you must do to help folks.

 

[Red Baker]

Major problems for the Canton area and beyond. Parts of I-40 is missing due to landside and some people missing.

Asking folks to stay off of the roads ~ schools closed and many businesses.

Hurricane Helene leaves over 100 dead, millions without power in the Southeastern U.S. Here's what we know and what to expect next.

Helene’s trail of destruction and record-breaking floods could rank among the costliest storms in U.S. history.

news.yahoo.com

Listening to the local news yesterday, and they said at least 600 people are still missing in the Asheville area . We are about an hour drive down from Asheville.

Hurricane Helene by the numbers: Catastrophic destruction covers 400 miles

After making landfall in Florida's Big Bend region Thursday night as a major Category 4 hurricane, Helene has caused catastrophic storm surge, wind damage and inland flooding across a wide swath of the South. Helene was the strongest hurricane to make landfall in the Big Bend region on record...

news.yahoo.com

 

[Mr GLee]

Good morning Jim,

The two camps of this thought:

Creationism:
John Calvin
Francis Turretin
Charles Hodge
A.A. Hodge
Louis Berkhof

Augustine (according to Berkhof hesitated to choose)

Traducianism:
Tertullian
Martin Luther
Jonathan Edwards
Ezekiel Hopkins
W.G.T. Shedd
Augustus Strong
Gordon H. Clark

I think each has its own truth, each has its own errors. So many points to consider, before making a judgement on what is true, what is false. I see problems on both sides of the issues. What first needs to be determine is what is the different between soul and spirit of man; plus, does God still create sinless soul, or spirits, ( if there is a different between the two and I believe there is) or is this passed down through the male to the children~which I believe it is~thus Christ's father was God, not through Adam. But this subject needs time to be consider and proven. I think it is in the right thread to consider along with the depravity of man

I do not have time at the moment to even consider the discussion, since we are still dealing with the hurricane mess here, making arrangements for our loved ones and friends to stay with us and use our internet, and power, and provide food, baths, etc. I'm looking at my daughter's mother in law sleeping on my recliner since she's on an oxygen tank and sleeps better semi-vertical. Got to do what you must do to help folks.

Traducianism: new word

Why would it be necessary to separate the soul from the spirit and not that they both work together as one thing?

Sin has no DNA that can be passed down. The soul that sins his/hers spirit dies.

Soul would seem to represent our connection with God not seen as well as each other seen . Christians soul brothers and sisters .

They call no man on earth Holy Father

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.