Is Total Depravity a required belief?

[fastfredy0]

Do they need to accept it in order to be saved? Certainly not. If it was necessary then none would be saved, because none really understand the depth and width of the space between us and God. Saving faith is not our product, but the product of the Holy Spirit, who knows God completely. We don't. Our intelligent informed understanding of nothing qualifies us for Salvation.

While I agree the complete knowledge of almost any doctrine requires omniscience, I don't think the question implies omniscience on Total Depravity to be saved. I assume the question implies some sore of general knowledge on the subject.
We are saved by faith. Faith requires knowledge of something; in other words something to believe. The knowledge of the Total Depravity of man is not IMO part of the knowledge needed by one to be saved.

Aside: You ask 10 Christians everything one must believe to be saved and you will get 9 different answers IMO.

 

[fastfredy0]

These are the stepping stones to proving Total Depravity to All Christians...

I think you need to define Total Depravity in order for us to answer the question. Just understanding we are sinful is different than Total Depravity as I define it.

 

[Arial]

I mean to be Saved, we need to know we're Lost Sinners...

We do not know we are lost sinners until we are saved. Regenerated by the Holy Spirit, hear the gospel with ears opened by God, believe it because of the faith given by God.

 

[Arial]

Combine this with our not being Saved by Meritorious Works. Now we need the knowledge of Sin as necessary for Salvation, and we have the hopelessness of never being Saved by Works; right?

None of what I'm saying is opposed to Calvinism. You needed to know you are a Sinner to be Saved; right?

Yes in a sense, but it is part and parcel of being saved, but we do not need to and cannot know that except through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Any conviction of sin is a result of what God has done in us.

At the same time, if there is no conviction of sin, there is no salvation. Learning what sin is and repenting of it, comes in increments over time as we find out from the word of God what pleases Him and what is an abomination to Him. And we can intellectually learn from the Law as this is what the Law was/is teaching, and for the Christian, from the NT imperatives and instructions. But no amount of doing them will save. For the believer the doing of them is a result of being saved.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

Assuming that it's only the "Calvinist Doctrine", which appears to contain a mixture of truth and fiction, then I don't personally bother with it, since it's unimportant. It's only "theology" after all. What I accept is that: I can't come to Christ UNLESS God DRAWS me to Christ (which he did again in 1963), you ain't coming (John 6:44) and that's all the "Doctrine" I need.

 

[Mr GLee]

When convicted by the Spirit at that moment of conversion, you are acutely aware of your utter need of redemption because of your sin.
You are "cut to the heart" This leads to repentance.

Before that moment, you were quite content with your sin.

Ray's evangelism "technique" showcases this very clearly. It is however the power of the Spirit of God that brings conviction when he [Ray] evangelizes.
Those who do not "hear" or are not convicted, are not stronger than the power of God, rather their minds/hearts are not opened by God to understanding.

I would offer. To repent is a work of God. . the source of redemption

 

[ReverendRV]

I agree total depravity is true, not that Total Depravity in TULIP is true.

 

[PeanutGallery]

I agree total depravity is true, not that Total Depravity in TULIP is true.

This part here would help clarify:

I think you need to define Total Depravity in order for us to answer the question....

Scripture to support TULIP's Total Depravity would help.

 

[ReverendRV]

I think you need to define Total Depravity in order for us to answer the question. Just understanding we are sinful is different than Total Depravity as I define it.

Total Depravity is our Inability to do anything Good because of our Native Depravity...

 

[makesends]

These are the stepping stones to proving Total Depravity to All Christians...

Sure, but the OP is about proving that Total Depravity (apparently as described by Reformed/Calvinism) needs to be understood in order for one to be saved, but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes in a sense, but it is part and parcel of being saved, but we do not need to and cannot know that except through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Any conviction of sin is a result of what God has done in us.

At the same time, if there is no conviction of sin, there is no salvation. Learning what sin is and repenting of it, comes in increments over time as we find out from the word of God what pleases Him and what is an abomination to Him. And we can intellectually learn from the Law as this is what the Law was/is teaching, and for the Christian, from the NT imperatives and instructions. But no amount of doing them will save. For the believer the doing of them is a result of being saved.

Anything I say here presumes God's involvement, but is asking about if Total Depravity is needed information to be Saved...

 

[PeanutGallery]

Anything I say here presumes God's involvement, but is asking about if Total Depravity is needed information to be Saved...

Would not the person ask for complete clarification of Total Depravity in order to determine if they are saved?

 

[ReverendRV]

Sure, but the OP is about proving that Total Depravity (apparently as described by Reformed/Calvinism) needs to be understood in order for one to be saved, but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Now you've hit the nail on the head. I'm Conflating Total Depravity with Original Sin; to compare the definition of Total Depravity with the definition of Sin. When the Knowledge of Sin is combined with the Knowledge that we're not Saved by Works/Merit; this IS the Knowledge of Total Depravity, without knowing the Doctrine of Total depravity...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Anything I say here presumes God's involvement, but is asking about if Total Depravity is needed information to be Saved...

Conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit,is all that's required. And sInce Conviction is God's WORD TO YOU, then it's also the source of your SAVING FAITH. When you then Repent of your SIN, and cry out for salvation, that's all that's necessary. Then Everything changes, and you're new and clean. "Doctrines" are not required.

There's plenty of time to confuse things with "man's theology" later.

 

[makesends]

Do you agree the knowledge of Sin, is necessary to be Saved?

Knowledge that we are sinners is necessary to be saved.
1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Be careful here. The mathematical construction: "a) The Gospel is necessary in order that one be saved. b) The fact of sinfulness is endemic to the Gospel. c) Therefore, knowledge of one's sinfulness is necessary in order that one be saved." jumps a logical step or two.

We know that God saves us by the gift of faith. If the conclusion (c) is correct, then one is saying either that c.1) faith is only one of the things through which we can be saved —that is, that 'sola fide' is not scriptural or reasonable; or c.2) that knowledge of one's sinfulness is (at least part of) faith. I don't see either of these (1 or 2) shown in Scripture.

Let's not have our words tangle up our doctrine.

 

[ReverendRV]

Conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit,is all that's required. And sInce Conviction is God's WORD TO YOU, then it's also the source of your SAVING FAITH. When you then Repent of your SIN, and cry out for salvation, that's all that's necessary. Then Everything changes, and you're new and clean. "Doctrines" are not required.

There's plenty of time to confuse things with "man's theology" later.

This is ALSO hitting the nail on the head, more is required than this; the knowledge that we're not Saved by Works is needed to be factored in. When this is factored in, Total Depravity rises to the top...

 

[Carbon]

Do Christians need to accept the Doctrine of Total Depravity?

No. But if we only knew our depravity!

 

[makesends]

Now you've hit the nail on the head. I'm Conflating Total Depravity with Original Sin; to compare the definition of Total Depravity with the definition of Sin. When the Knowledge of Sin is combined with the Knowledge that we're not Saved by Works/Merit; this IS the Knowledge of Total Depravity, without knowing the Doctrine of Total depravity...

Just an aside: In my experience, "conflate" is usually meant in a derogatory way.

Maybe "combine" would work there, Idk.

 

[ReverendRV]

No. But if we only knew our depravity!

That's exactly where I'm going...

Knowing our depravity/Sinfulness is necessary to be Saved...

 

[Arial]

Anything I say here presumes God's involvement, but is asking about if Total Depravity is needed information to be Saved...

The doctrine? No. Faith in the person and work of Jesus is what is necessary to be saved.