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Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

Yes, of course. And that speaks volumes against the very notion of Total Depravity.
Total Depravity? Working out the wage of sin death???? It appointed for all to die once. Then their corrupted flesh returns to dust and temporal spirit given under the letter of the law. .( death) return to the Holy Father of all Spirt life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I would also offer. .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
 
Total Depravity? Working out the wage of sin death???? It appointed for all to die once. Then their corrupted flesh returns to dust and temporal spirit given under the letter of the law. .( death) return to the Holy Father of all Spirt life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I would also offer. .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
If I get your drift, this is a good way to express this. Fallen man has no way of avoiding the wages.
 
When I was yet a babe in Christ, I learned about Redemption as an accounting problem.
 
Adam was not exactly like God initially.
I did not say he was. I actually said (perhaps you missed it) that he was similar to God in many ways but exactly like him in no way.
 
I don't think you understand it. You misunderstand 1 Corinthians 2:14, but I won't go there now.
I know where you go with that passage as you have posted it to me before. But your interpretation makes nonsense out of the context.
No, not quite true. Adam did become a sinner. He begets, his sons beget, their sons beget, and so on, not men who are sinners, but rather men who, like Adam, become sinners. How did Adam become a sinner? He did it by disobeying god. he chose to disobey God. And we just like Adam, at some point in our lives chose to disobey God. In doing so we became sinners. Until Adam sinned, he was not a sinner. The instant he sinned he became a sinner. And all of mankind is the same. Until one sins, he is not a sinner. The instant he sins he becomes a sinner. The distinction is absolutely significant and absolutely important. Only our own disobedience, lawlessness, is imputed as sin to us.
You no doubt have heard the expression, and it is as true today as it was when whoever first said it did so.

Man is not a sinner because he sins----he sins because he is a sinner. There is profound logic in that, and as one who insists upon logic in all things, I propose that you think that statement through following the dictates of logic.
 
Yes, of course. And that speaks volumes against the very notion of Total Depravity.
Faith is counted as righteousness. Always was, is now, always will be.

Just as our faith in Christ is counted to the believer as righteousness, so it was with all the OT saints,, even though they at times, as do we, still sin. Noah was not without sin. And why do you suppose that is? And why do you suppose that the Christian still sins, though they do not live a lifestyle of sin? It is because we are sinners. It is in our very makeup and disposition to sin.
 
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I know where you go with that passage as you have posted it to me before. But your interpretation makes nonsense out of the context.
It is the context that denies your interpretation. Not only that it is the reality of the implication of your interpretation that makes it nonsense.
Man is not a sinner because he sins----he sins because he is a sinner. There is profound logic in that, and as one who insists upon logic in all things, I propose that you think that statement through following the dictates of logic.
That logic declares Adam was a sinner.
 
Faith is counted as righteousness. Always was, is now, always will be.

Just as our faith in Christ is counted to the believer as righteousness, so it was with all the OT saints,, even though they at times, as do we, still sin. Noah was not without sin. And why do you suppose that is? And why do you suppose that the Christian still sins, though they do not live a lifestyle of sin? It is because we are sinners. It is in our very makeup and disposition to sin.
Sorry, that doesn't support Total Depravity in any way whatever. There is a righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God. In counting the faith the righteousness of God is imputed.
 
If I get your drift, this is a good way to express this. Fallen man has no way of avoiding the wages.
Yes, marvel not a person must be born again from above.
 
Sorry, that doesn't support Total Depravity in any way whatever. There is a righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God. In counting the faith the righteousness of God is imputed.
Why is it that in your view, God can impute righteousness to a person through the one man Jesus, can impute our sins to the one man Jesus, but he cannot and would not impute the sin of the one man Adam to all men. You need to do a word study on the biblical term "impute" and use of "impute". And then arrive at what it is that God is saying in his word. That is always better than forming a biblical teaching on the basis of how we define God's character and actions.
 
It is the context that denies your interpretation. Not only that it is the reality of the implication of your interpretation that makes it nonsense.
Well---in your interpretation Paul is only talking about himself and the other apostles. In which case he would be teaching something to his audience that they could not understand. It would also be saying that only the apostles are given the Holy Spirit for the work that Christ assigned them to. According to my interpretation Paul is writing to those who can understand because they have been regenerated and are in Christ in faith, and do have the Holy Spirit. So he is saying it is those who have not been regenerated, who are not in Christ, and do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit who cannot understand the things he is saying or anything else that is spiritual (outside the natural.)
That logic declares Adam was a sinner.
It doesn't say anything about Adam. Try again.
 
Why is it that in your view, God can impute righteousness to a person through the one man Jesus, can impute our sins to the one man Jesus, but he cannot and would not impute the sin of the one man Adam to all men. You need to do a word study on the biblical term "impute" and use of "impute". And then arrive at what it is that God is saying in his word. That is always better than forming a biblical teaching on the basis of how we define God's character and actions.
Yes

I would offer the promise using the three days and nights promised demonstration .The father revealed His power, working in flesh of Jesus the Son of man . Pouring out His Spirt life on the flesh in jeapordy of his own Spirit life He gives us little calling us ye of little faith. Faith is a work that he can increase as we decrease

Two the one word that represents "one God" has spoken (Father with the Son)
 
When I was yet a babe in Christ, I learned about Redemption as an accounting problem.
That's interesting . In the parable in Luke 16 I call "No man can serve two good teaching masters" as Christ the one Lord

Christ uses Moses and the prophets to represent sola scriptura as the wisdom of God, three time to denote the end of the matter. He uses mammon to represent riches world as the wisdom of this world a series of parables beginning in the previous chapter with sheep, then a women loses ten pieces silver ten to represent all. and the early retirement of the rebel in the parable of what I calf "The long suffering waiting Holy Father" who not seeing ran towards him.

Mammon for riches that blinds the mind from the glory of the gospel. All things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) reveal the unseen gospel

A spirit does not have flesh and blood

Luke 16:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; (sola scriptura) let them hear them.(sola scriptura) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,(sola scriptura) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

The born again kiss of salvation. Reminded of the Psalms

Psalm 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
 
Why is it that in your view, God can impute righteousness to a person through the one man Jesus, can impute our sins to the one man Jesus, but he cannot and would not impute the sin of the one man Adam to all men. You need to do a word study on the biblical term "impute" and use of "impute". And then arrive at what it is that God is saying in his word.
Do you not understand the difference between justice and mercy or grace? If God imputes the sins of one to another that is injustice. When God, by Jesus Christ, imputes righteousness to the unworthy, that is grace and mercy. I am not sure that a passage such as 2 Corinthians 5:21 is actually saying that sin was imputed to Jesus.

In the OT, sin wasn't imputed to the animal being sacrificed. That wouldn't even have made sense. But the animal became the sin-offering to God for Israe as the way of atonement. I think it is in the same way that Jesus became the sin-offering to God for the sins of the world, except with Jesus it was the perfect once for all sacrifice.
That is always better than forming a biblical teaching on the basis of how we define God's character and actions.
The only morality that we can know is from God is that which aligns with God's own character.
 
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Post #274 @JIM. ????
 
Well---in your interpretation Paul is only talking about himself and the other apostles. In which case he would be teaching something to his audience that they could not understand.
Only from your faulty notion of Total Depravity. As I have said so many time, Total Depravity, which stands in stark contrast to anything biblical, is the source of nearly all that is wrong with Reformed Theology's soteriology
It doesn't say anything about Adam. Try again.
It says that your reasoning concerning why one sins is wrong.
 
Do you not understand the difference between justice and mercy or grace? If God imputes the sins of one to another that is injustice. When God, by Jesus Christ, imputes righteousness to the unworthy, that is grace and mercy. I am not sure that a passage such as 2 Corinthians 5:21 is actually saying that sin was imputed to Jesus.

In the OT, sin wasn't imputed to the animal being sacrificed. That wouldn't even have made sense. But the animal became the sin-offering to God for Israe as the way of atonement. I think it is in the same way that Jesus became the sin-offering to God for the sins of the world, except with Jesus it was the perfect once for all sacrifice.

The only morality that we can know is from God is that which aligns with God's own character.

I would offer .Remember as David declared in the Psalms if the foundations of the teaching of Christ is destroyed. What could the believer do?

The foundation of the doctrines are in the Old they were the ceremonial laws as shadows Not something that began in Acts 2 that some call early church. . . the shadows disappeared when the first century reformation came.

The ceremonies like "circumcisions' or baptisms" having no value of themselves they were used as shadows in respect to the gospel the sufferings of Christ our husband beforehand .(sign to the world not themselves.) every item used spoke of the sufferings savior beforehand. .
They were signs used in parables the figurative language, which without Christ spoke not hiding the understanding of faith the (invisible) "Let there be" power of Christ.

A sign to the unbelieving world. Again they were not signs unto their own dying flesh. I did it. . it proves. . I am a child of God

Aarons two sons made it a sign unto themselves (5 second false fame) .They were consumed by what they added to the law called; "strange fire" Their priestly attire they carried the ashes away not hint of smoke.

Even today some Jews do worship a idol image a shadow of the law. The Western or Wailing Wall.

1 Peter1: 9-11 Receiving the end of your (new born again ) faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time (Hebrews the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow

Signify. . using the temporal things seen in parables figures of speech in order to give the understanding of Christ, the invisible eternal thing of Christ things that mightyfuly work in the believer

Hebrew 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, (Kings in Israel) in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Paraphrase. . For he has made him Jesus the Son of man dying mankind in the likeness of sin in whom the Holy Spirit poured out his Spirit life on (called drink blood eat flesh) .

A theophany or vision like that of Melchezedek would not work. Literal dying flesh and blood was a must to show the working of a living sacrifice of Christ . No dead sacrifices

Romans 8:3 For what the law (letter death) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
 
I've been off line for two half days due to the Hurricane totally devastation in the northwestern part of S.C. and western of N.C. ~my family is doing good with very little damaged~it looks like a war zone here, never seen anything like it in the Carolina's in my short 76 years of living here.

Months to clean this mess up, days and even weeks for all power to be restored.
 
I've been off line for two half days due to the Hurricane totally devastation in the northwestern part of S.C. and western of N.C. ~my family is doing good with very little damaged~it looks like a war zone here, never seen anything like it in the Carolina's in my short 76 years of living here.

Months to clean this mess up, days and even weeks for all power to be restored.
Thanks for the update. I have yet to hear from a friend in Canton, NC. Outside Asheville.
 
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