Free Will

[civic]

Your avatar looks like a certain Mr Bunyan if I am not mistaken? A pretty good picture too.

I read Pilgrims Progress when I was around 18. It really didn't make much sense to me at the time (probably helped by the olde English). After I was saved I read it again. The second time was like, "Yep, I know exactly what you are trying to say".

No he took that picture last year at a carnival.

 

[civic]

I think we will still be worms until we die.

Will there be worms in heaven ?

 

[Behold]

Can you share with the group the differences you see between predestination and foreknowledge ?

Thanks !

Thank you for the opportunity.



1.) What Calvin did was not understand Foreknowledge, and turned it into "chooses some, and refuses others".

Lets get away from "pre-determined" and just look at foreknowledge, mostly.

God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent,
And So, is the bible.
The bible shows you what was, and what is now, and what is coming next.
However, as the bible IS showing you what it "up and coming", that is not the Bible causing it to happen.
Its the Bible REVEALING what is on the way..
See that?

That is FORE- Knowledge... or Knowledge BEFORE it happens being revealed.
The bible is not causing the AntiChrist to come, but it has shown us that it "Saw Him Here' already.
= FOREKnowledge.
THAt is God.... He SEES the future, = Fore-Knowledge.
And Calvin took that understanding....and changed it into... God causes it to happen.

He redefined "Fore Knowledge" as "God Causes", and away he went....

Its really simple to see it...
Its this..

God Knowing beforehand, what is going to Happen next, is not the same as God causing it to occur.

A.) Foreknowing is not the same as ForeCAUSING.

See that?
Calving didn't.

2.) God knew that most of the Readers here, were going to become believers """in Yeshua""", because that is His "all knowing" Foreknowledge.
But that is not GOD CAUSING..., forcing, or making you do it.
See it?

"Foreknowledge" is not the same as "pre-destined".

3.) Here is what is Pre-Destined.

The Born again are pre-destined to be conformed into the Image of Christ.

And, the unbelievers are pre-destined to be adopted "in Christ". and that is based on : "Faith is counted as Righteousness".

John 3:16, that denies Calvinism, you find that Jesus is offered to the ":WORLD".... not just to the pre-destined.

John 12:32 that denies Calvinism, says that Jesus , once lifted up on the Cross, will draw "ALL" to Himself, not just the pre-destined.

1 Timothy 2:4 says that GOD wants ALL to be His own... and that again denies the Theology of JCalvin who says... "no, its just the pre-destined".

Now.....What Calvin does that is so Anti-Christ, is that he LIMITS the Cross of Christ to "SOME".... only.
He teaches that "The blood of Jesus", is not for us all, its just for SOME.
And that is , a "doctrine of devils'.

Hebrews 13:9

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

what about the freedom to choose or believe/reject the gospel ?

If man is responsible for his sins and accountable to God then it stands to reason man has chosen to sin, live in sin and reject God by his own will. Man is culpable for his sin. I'm not at all saying that God does not act first by His grace in drawing a man, convicting a man of his sin and guilt. I 100% believe God acts first monergistically in drawing man, convicting him of his sins in the salvation process. I believe man after that conviction and drawing must place his faith in the gospel, in the Son for his salvation. We must believe that is on us not God. And I do not believe that removes or takes any glory away from God because its God doing the drawing to Himself and the convicting of sin that leads to faith and repentance of said sins. Salvation is 100 % Gods doing but man must believe- thats on him. Unbelief keeps one condemned whereas faith/belief saves a person.

And I'm very familiar with all of the passages where faith is said to be a gift. I just see those passages differently and that those passages are talking about those already saved who are in the body of Christ. I know that is debatable just the same way Ephesians 2:8-9 is debatable depending if one is a monergist or a synergist, Calvinist or Arminian.

So would it be fair to say you fall within the first "camp" described here and have some quibble with John 6:37?

 

[civic]

So would it be fair to say you fall within the first "camp" described here and have some quibble with John 6:37?

Now I believe Gods grace can be resisted whereas before I did not. His grace always precedes everything in the salvation process. Gods grace is always prevenient.

 

[fastfredy0]

You were a worm, now you are a saint, an ambassador, a royal priest, His brethren- Hebrews 2:11.

Yeah, and I did nothing to earn it. What a deal; everything for nothing.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Now I believe Gods grace can be resisted whereas before I did not. His grace always precedes everything in the salvation process. Gods grace is always prevenient.

Oh good. Now we have something to disagree about and ignore. Whew.

 

[civic]

Yeah, and I did nothing to earn it. What a deal; everything for nothing.

View attachment 131

I agree completely its all by His grace and He mercifully saved a wretch like me , a worm. Yet God has placed us in the heavenlies with Christ and we are His temple where the Holy Spirit dwells in us and declares us Righteous and Holy in the Beloved. God does not dwell in the unholy. Its a matter of perspective many times and how we view ourselves in Christ. Scripture has much to say about this topic and who we are in Christ. We are His Ambassadors, Missionaries, His hands and His feet, His body, Royal Priests.

 

[fastfredy0]

Yeah, and I did nothing to earn it. What a deal; everything for nothing.

It wasn't and isn't "everything for nothing." Its cost was infinite.

I meant "I get everything and I did nothing". I did not mean nothing was done so I could get everything.
I think we're on the 'same page'.

 

[civic]

I believe that too, (minus prevenient grace) yet that isn't a rebuttal to the true meaning of irresistible grace.

I wasn't trying to rebut it lol. I was just stating what I now believe. The bottom line regardless of which side of the fence one is on is no one can or will be saved apart from Gods mercy and His grace. We are all undeserving of both.

 

[Josheb]

Then he is not free. I agree, but that takes it to another level.

“That the Will is always determined by the strongest motive,”
Edwards.

Two thoughts:

• Scripture always uses the term "free will" within context, the context of the not-created and created conditions. The most preeminent of those conditions is the fact God is sovereign and in any and all situations in which there might be any difference of contest between human will and divine will, God wins. Then there are all the created conditions like time, space, knowledge, etc.
• Personally, I prefer the term "liberty" to "free". Sinful humans have a certain limited liberty to make choices in various ways at various times with various circumstances, but we're not free; we're not unfettered or unrestrained. There is a plethora of limits.

.

 

[Josheb]

Of course, you don't get that from what I said and believe? I think you know what I believe by now. Maybe not?

Just looking for clarification.

 

[Selah7]

Before the new birth, man is at enmity with God, and will not choose Him. So it is impossible for the word itself to produce faith in the heart of the natural man. He is determined not to seek God.

Even the elect? because I believe that an elect person will surely excitedly believe when first presented with God's Word. In other words, more than likely, an elect person will not be “determined not to seek God.” Why? because it’s already been made known to them before the foundation of the world. They have “eyes to see and ears to hear and therefore, they would, upon even the first reading or hearing of the gospel, discern that it is true because “…he (God) hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:”

Just my thoughts; just trying to understand and learn … selah

 

[Eleanor]

You were a worm, now you are a saint, an ambassador, a royal priest, His brethren- Hebrews 2:11.

Still looks like a worm to me.

 

[civic]

Still looks like a worm to me.

we were in a cocoon but a metamorphis took placed and we were changed into a butterfly that could fly. we become what we think , a worm or a butterfly- who do you want to be, live in the mud like a worm or fly with wings like a buttterfly

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

we were in a cocoon but a metamorphis took placed and we were changed into a butterfly that could fly. we become what we think , a worm or a butterfly- who do you want to be, live in the mud like a worm or fly with wings like a buttterfly

This sounds like charismatic New Age stuff to me. Sorry. But I came out of that whole thing and I can detect it quite easily.

There's a lot of danger in the "law of attraction" idea, "thoughts create reality" stuff.

 

[civic]

This sounds like charismatic New Age stuff to me. Sorry. But I came out of that whole thing and I can detect it quite easily.

There's a lot of danger in the "law of attraction" idea, "thoughts create reality" stuff.

Not at all Romans 12:2 uses the Greek word we get the English metamorphosis from to describe believers .

3339 metamorphóō (from 3326 /metá, "change after being with" and 3445/morphóō, "changing form in keeping with inner reality") – properly, transformed after being with; transfigured.

[3339 (metamorphóō) is the root of the English terms "metamorphosis" and "metamorphize."]

Matthew 17:2 V-AIP-3S
GRK: καὶ μετεμορφώθη ἔμπροσθεν αὐτῶν
NAS: And He was transfigured before
KJV: And was transfigured before them:
INT: And he was transfigured before them

Mark 9:2 V-AIP-3S
GRK: μόνους καὶ μετεμορφώθη ἔμπροσθεν αὐτῶν
NAS: by themselves. And He was transfigured before
KJV: and he was transfigured before
INT: alone And he was transfiguredbefore them

Romans 12:2 V-PMM/P-2P
GRK: τούτῳ ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε τῇ ἀνακαινώσει
NAS: world, but be transformed by the renewing
KJV: but be ye transformed by the renewing
INT: this but be transformed by the renewing

 

[Alive]

Oh boy...Lord, should I lay out there just what I believe and how the Lord solved the great conundrum for me?

 

[civic]

Oh boy...Lord, should I lay out there just what I believe and how the Lord solved the great conundrum for me?

Please do my friend

 

[Eleanor]

Thank you for the opportunity.
1.) What Calvin did was not understand Foreknowledge, and turned it into "chooses some, and refuses others".
Lets get away from "pre-determined" and just look at foreknowledge, mostly.
God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent,
And So, is the bible.
The bible shows you what was, and what is now, and what is coming next.
However, as the bible IS showing you what it "up and coming", that is not the Bible causing it to happen.
Its the Bible REVEALING what is on the way..
See that?

That is FORE- Knowledge... or Knowledge BEFORE it happens being revealed
The bible is not causing the AntiChrist to come, but it has shown us that it "Saw Him Here' already.
= FOREKnowledge.
THAt is God.... He SEES the future, = Fore-Knowledge.
And Calvin took that understanding....and changed it into... God causes it to happen.

He redefined "Fore Knowledge" as "God Causes", and away he went....